TU-16 Badger vs B-47 Statojet vs Avro Vulcan?

[woljags]

i've a frog test shot kit of the B47,i might sort it out for a start to finish build to go with this interesting post

 

[nuuumannn]

Avro Vulcan out of these three, but the Handley Page Victor could do what the Vulcan could, but with a bigger bomb load (35,000 lbs in the Victor as opposed to 21,000 lbs in the Vulcan), although it was slightly slower. The Vulcan remained in service for much longer than anticipated because proposed replacements in RAF service were not completed. Both the Tu-16 and B-47 were replaced by bigger and heavier bombers.

I agree with wingspanner about the B-47; it looked real futuristic when it first appeared next to the likes of the B-45 Tornado. I remember reading a book about covert flights by the USAF over Communist territory, something like "Spy flights of the Cold War". Fascinating stuff. The USAF lost a large number of aircraft and crews from virtually the end of the war in intelligence gathering Privateers and other types.

 

[Tangopilot89]

I'm another one that's gone with the Vulcan. Magnificent looking aircraft, plus after reading Vulcan 607 I'm impressed an aircraft nearly out of service was still able to do the job, yes thanks to a load of Victor AAR tankers. There used to be one on display not far from where I live, but it was chopped up, mainly because the entire airframe had rotted right through. What a sad ending for such a great plane.

 

[Gixxerman]

I always thought the B-47 was a fine looking aircraft, the TU-16 wasn't bad either but for me it has to be the Vulcan, a huge heavy bomber with close to fighter like handling at high altitudes.
Plus my dad was Vulcan aircrew back in the day.

The B-47 was the most historically significant since it led to the B-52 and KC-135/Boeing 707. Its design and performance was revolutionary and it was certainly a problem for the USSR. Their heroics buzzing Russian Mig bases and scooting off before the Migs could catch them is quite a story. Some came back with 20mm holes in them.

Yeah but with the Vulcan they couldn't get anywhere near their altitude to stand a chance of putting holes in them.
My dad used to tell me stories about how they would try and flame out long before they got near the big deltas.

The big thing with Vulcan over the Victor was power.
Vulcan always had tremendous power from those Olympus engines, the Victor, sadly, never got the big engines she was crying out for.....and when the penny finally dropped that high altitude was no way to penetrate enemy airspace and hope to survive then it was pretty obvious that the Vulcan's huge delta was the one more suited to fast low level flying.

Mind you, the Victor was probably the more futuristic looking of the 2......but hindsight is a wonderful thing and if they'd only realised about the low-level mission a little earlier there'd have been no need to spend the then large sums on Vulcan or Victor.
Valiant B2 would have been perfect.

 

[vikingBerserker]

I've always liked the Vulcan myself.

 

[Gixxerman]

I've always liked the Vulcan myself.

All gone now (save for XH558......a fantastic sight sound if you've not had the pleasure) but I have to agree Vulcan is a spectacular sight in the sky (and on the ground).

I was just too young to remember it but my older brothers reckoned QRA practice flights (4 Vulcans started up racing off to get airborne away in under 4 minutes as if a sneak attack was being made on the UK) were simply awesome.......and you can imagine the disruption to class (they were in school at the time near the base) as teachers made futile attempts to stop the inevitable (and completely irresistable) flow of young boys to the windows to get a look.
This was a regular occurrence back in the day and it never got old.

Heady days pretty tense times. Not sorry to see the back of them but I'm glad not every one of the planes from then are gone completely.

 

[pbfoot]

I was just too young to remember it but my older brothers reckoned QRA practice flights (4 Vulcans started up racing off to get airborne away in under 4 minutes as if a sneak attack was being made on the UK) were simply awesome.

4 Minutes is beyond belief for me , unless they were sitting in cockpit with all the ground crew around , I believe 5 minutes was the goal for fighters and they are far less complex

 

[Gixxerman]

pbfoot

I believe it is totally accurate.
The crew on QRA had quarters which were very close to the aircraft.
I've even read of times even less than that, 4 cold Vulcans in well under 4 minutes (1 minute 40 seconds is quoted on the net)......don't forget everything was ready geared for those 4 planes to be up away incredibly quickly.
I know there was a push button for the ground crew to start the 4 engines simulataneously, everything would have been hooked up to enable a fast start designed to release quickly once they were started.

 

[pbfoot]

pbfoot

I believe it is totally accurate.
The crew on QRA had quarters which were very close to the aircraft.
I've even read of times even less than that, 4 cold Vulcans in well under 4 minutes (1 minute 40 seconds is quoted on the net)......don't forget everything was ready geared for those 4 planes to be up away incredibly quickly.
I know there was a push button for the ground crew to start the 4 engines simulataneously, everything would have been hooked up to enable a fast start designed to release quickly once they were started.

I had control of the Q button for 4 years and 4 minutes is too quick, drop your pool cue or cards put helmet on run the 25yds to aircraft climb up ladder and we haven't even turned the key

 

[Messy1]

MiG-15. And more than a few were shot down as RB-47s during the cold war. You want a fan-effing-tastic read about RB-47s, RB-29s, RB-50s, RC-130s, US subs doing covert ops tapping Russian comm cables, etc., buy Blind Man's Bluff. You will not be disappointed. And you will be shocked by the number of US air assets shot down that you never have heard about. It was a war. And many of our best lost their lives fighting it.

Blind Man's Bluff is and will be a permanent addition to my personal library collection. Awesome book, one of my all time favorites. Agree 100% Matt! It is a must read.

 

[Gixxerman]

I had control of the Q button for 4 years and 4 minutes is too quick, drop your pool cue or cards put helmet on run the 25yds to aircraft climb up ladder and we haven't even turned the key

You controlled the Q button on Vulcans?

I'm not getting into an argument but I think there are a ton of references to 4 mins or under all over the net ( not just from the wilder end of it either).
The British V bombers were specifically designed (thanks to geography the geopolitics of the time) to get away as fast as possible, they sat ready waiting in the full knowledge that a Soviet strike would be on their heads in minutes, even at the dispersal fields around the UK.

Interestingly the B52 B1 also show this thinking in some of their systems today (the single push button auto-multiple engine start for instance).

Maybe we're talking about slightly different things, I found this -

When operational, crews were allocated their war targets and, having satisfied wing staff they were proficient to prosecute their war mission, were rostered for QRA. This was the raison d'être of the V-force. Each squadron mounted a QRA aircraft and crew 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. This amounted to crews pulling 3 to 6 days a month. While on QRA, crews were subjected to random call-outs throughout the day and night to continuously test the readiness posture.

To launch the force quickly, aircrews and stations were directly linked to the Bomber Controller at HQ STC. Deep his Bunker, when the Bomber Controller announced "Readiness State 05!" the crews ran to their aircraft. On board and breathless, the crews awaited further Readiness State changes.

Next came either "Readiness State 02" or "Scramble". At RS02, all engines were started simultaneously at the press of a single button. Alternators and powered flying controls automatically started and came on line.

The aircraft was ready to taxi within 20 seconds of hitting the button.
The average time taken for all 4 aircraft to be airborne from "Scramble" was 1 minute 47 secs, but there are recorded occasions when all 4 were airborne within a minute.

Here

 

[pbfoot]

No I controlled the Scramble button on F101 Voodoos , although Vulcans were frequent visitors as targets , just don't believe it for a 2 minute scramble unless they are sitting their crew positions on the aircraft. If that was the case its possible if they are in the Q playing cards or pool imho it impossible unless the RAF hired 16 Usain Bolts as aircrew

 

[Gixxerman]

Having had another look around I found this, I have to agree that your 5 minutes may well be right the most fair description of what went on.


This site has ex-crew talking one specifically saying 4 minutess is a myth but 5 minutes was not.

one ex-crew poster says -

Four minutes? Pure myth.

Crews were at 15 minutes.
In tension they would have been brought to 5 minutes which was cockpit readiness, power on, engines off and could be held for around 5 hours before crew fatigue would become an issue.

The next stages was either start engines or 2 minutes. Start engines was just that.
Two minutes was start engines and taxy to the take-off point.
Blue Steel aircraft did not taxy. Aircraft could stand, engines running, for about 30 minutes but much longer could start to eat into fuel reserves.

On US SAC bases they went one further and we envied them.
Throughout the base there were yellow beacon lamps on the lamp posts. The lights flashd and anyone not connected with the alert had to clear the road.

a second -

The QRA states were as follows:

RS15 - The "normal" state; crews able to be airborne within 15 minutes. This implied the crews either being close to the aircraft of having dedicated transport available. This RS could be held for days.

RS05 - Airborne within 5 minutes; crew in aircraft all systems and AAPP running but engines not started. This RS could be held for hours.

RS02 - Airborne within 2 minutes; engines running and in position on the ORP or at the holding point for the runway. If the aircraft was not on the ORP then they would taxi when the RS was raised from 05 to 02. This RS would not be expected to be held for longer than minutes.

There was also an exercise only state of "Start Engines", this was exactly what it said, you started and then shut down the engines. This was introduced because of restrictions on taxying the Blue Steel armed aircraft when they had an armed and fuelled missile. As stated above, we never got airborne with live weapons.

The procedures were practiced on a regular basis, the monthly Group exercise always had the first wave launched from the ORP and subsequent waves from their dispersals; all using the alert procedures. The Kinsman or Candella exercises to keep the dispersal airfields used also involved a launch of the flown in aircraft on the subsequent day. The generation exercises such as Mick or Mickey Finn always ended in an alert call out and launch where appropriate. As you may surmise, with that amount of practise we were actually quite good at it!

So, I hope I didn't come across as too argumentative I'm happy to agree with you pbfoot.
Happy new year.

 

[pbfoot]

Having had another look around I found this, I have to agree that your 5 minutes may well be right the most fair description of what went on.


This site has ex-crew talking one specifically saying 4 minutess is a myth but 5 minutes was not.



So, I hope I didn't come across as too argumentative I'm happy to agree with you pbfoot.
Happy new year.

no fear , I've seen far more of my share of scrambles, and probably seen more Vulcans and Victors

 

[jipi]

The Tu-16 was exported and is still flown and developed in China.

I read somewhere that China was still building them (But maybe it is what you meant.)

 

[Matt308]

Yes China flies a version with air-to-ship strike capability.