Turboprops at War

xylstra · Apr 10, 2020

MIflyer said:
Yesterday I was reading that the RN used Westland Wyverns to attack Egyptian airfields during the Suez Crisis, carrying 1000 lb bombs. I got to thinking about how many turboprops have actually seen combat. Here is the list I came up with:

C-130 in the Cold War, Vietnam, Panama, Desert Storm, Iraq, Afghanistan. This was not only as a transport taking fire, but as an ECM airplane, a bomber, a gunship, and a flare dropper.

OV-10 in Vietnam and Desert Storm.

Westland Wyvern (what is a Wyvern that the airplane is named after, anyway?) By the way, I'd guess that Frog/Airlines had a model of it.

Pucara in the Falklands War

T-6 is supposed to be built in an light attack version, but I do not know if it has seen combat yet.

Tucano/A-29, also do not know if it has seen combat. Probably has, in Afghanistan and in drug interdiction.

Look deeper, you overlooked the Breuget 'Elize'.
On the subject of the 'Wyvern', a substantial chunk of time consumed in its tortured development program was expended trying to sort out the messy issue of throttle-control (a problem specific to diving-attack and highly maneouverable fighter aircraft) since there is no piston-engine compression braking effect exacerbated by the high rotational inertia of a turboshaft engine. They ended up developing some sort of 'anticipator' control system. Yikes!
This subject would be better to be broken out into a separate thread - I suspect the technical explanations from the experts will prove to be a most interesting read.

Graeme · Apr 10, 2020

xylstra said:
Look deeper, you overlooked the Breuget 'Elize'.

No "we" didn't - see post No.15.

MIflyer · Apr 10, 2020

Too bad we never got the P-81.

xylstra · Apr 13, 2020

Graeme said:
No "we" didn't - see post No.15.

Sorry, I don't quite follow your pitch. My response was directed at the original poster and not in response to anyone else's submission. Nor am I in a contest with anyone else on the subject. On my smartphone's limited screen real-estate I have not the time or patience to scroll through every single response.
After post my reply I had an immediate afterthought that the original poster had also overlooked the Fairey 'Gannet' and the Short S.B.6 'Sea Mew'.
Although only a prototype and not used in combat it is also worthwhile to include mention of the XF-84H 'ThunderScreech' whose donor airframe, the turbojet powered F-84F 'Thunder' was. It is not only technically interesting but also reflects US naval aircraft carrier design philosophy of the time.

nuuumannn · Apr 22, 2020

Virtually every Antonov turboprop cargo aircraft, from the An-8, in action during the invasion of Czechoslovakia in use by special forces overtaking Plzen airport, through the An-12, Afghanistan, where it became known as The Black Tulip for its role in airlifting the dead from that region back to the Soviet Union, and many other conflict areas requiring heavylift, the big An-22 Antei, Afghanistan, Angola, Egypt, Syria, An-26, Afghanistan, Angola and anywhere else there's been some sort of insurgency, they are so prolific, An-30, Afghanistan, Ukraine, An-32, Afghanistan...

nuuumannn · Apr 22, 2020

Graeme said:
Antonov An-10?

Actually not sure it has, Graeme, it was a four engined civilian transport and was in use as a military transport, but they had all been retired from VVS service before Afghanistan. There was one in East Germany as a flying command post though.

Antonov An-10 Ukraina Cat

nuuumannn · Apr 22, 2020

xylstra said:
Although only a prototype and not used in combat it is also worthwhile to include mention of the XF-84H 'ThunderScreech' whose donor airframe, the turbojet powered F-84F 'Thunder' was. It is not only technically interesting but also reflects US naval aircraft carrier design philosophy of the time.

Huh... doin' all the learnin' today, folks...

nuuumannn · Apr 22, 2020

xylstra said:
Although only a prototype and not used in combat it is also worthwhile to include mention of the XF-84H 'ThunderScreech' whose donor airframe, the turbojet powered F-84F 'Thunder' was. It is not only technically interesting but also reflects US naval aircraft carrier design philosophy of the time.

Ok, I'm gonna have to do this, dang it. Firstly, this is a Thunder, but its not an F-84F.

Thunder and Thunderbolt

In the background is a Thunderbolt, made by the same company as the F-84F and XF-84H.

P-47 side

This is an F-84F Thunderjet.

F-84F

This is also a Thunderjet, but it isn't an F-84F, it's an F-84G.

F-84G

And NONE of these aircraft are carrier capable nor developed by the US Navy.

Clear?

xylstra · Apr 23, 2020

nuuumannn said:
Ok, I'm gonna have to do this, dang it. Firstly, this is a Thunder, but its not an F-84F.

View attachment 578478Thunder and Thunderbolt

In the background is a Thunderbolt, made by the same company as the F-84F and XF-84H.

View attachment 578479P-47 side

This is an F-84F Thunderjet.

View attachment 578480F-84F

This is also a Thunderjet, but it isn't an F-84F, it's an F-84G.

View attachment 578481F-84G

And NONE of these aircraft are carrier capable nor developed by the US Navy.

Clear?

I operate from a smartphone with limited screen real estate and an annoying overtype facility. On the other hand I am also not a pedantic 'rivet-counter'. They have a tendency to turn otherwise civilised forum exchanges, 'toxic'.
The US Navy did drive early research into supersonic propellers.

nuuumannn · Apr 23, 2020

xylstra said:
On the other hand I am also not a pedantic 'rivet-counter'. They have a tendency to turn otherwise civilised forum exchanges, 'toxic'.

Now now spanky, don't get your knickers in a twist, nothing about what I've posted is 'rivet counting', just good ole fashioned aircraft recognition. Nor is it toxic, so cool it. Just having a bit of fun, you're leaping from topic to topic in very broad strokes to the extent that assuming that US carrier aircraft research by the US Navy could be linked somehow to the F-84F via the XF-84H Thunderscreech is a bit of a leap of imaginative juxtaposing.

If I can remember, you suggested that the SE.4's canopy was trialled to fit the SE.5, without providing any tangible evidence whatsoever, despite being repeatedly asked to provide sources. You don't have to get it right all the time, we all make mistakes, but go easy on the leaps of faith.

GrauGeist · Apr 23, 2020

Not necessarily "rivet counting" but the USN had little interest in USAF prop types after WWII (with the exception of the A-1 Skyraider) and the XF-84H was solely a USAF project.

Now the USN did experiment with turboprop types, like the A2D Skyshark, which was evolved from the A-1D, for example.

Graeme · Apr 23, 2020

xylstra said:
Sorry, I don't quite follow your pitch.

No pitch - just alerting you to the fact the Alize has been mentioned already.

xylstra said:
the original poster had also overlooked the Fairey 'Gannet' and the Short S.B.6 'Sea Mew'.

Possibly the reason he didn't is because neither the Gannet or the Seamew saw combat? -which is what Miflyer asked for in his original post....

MIflyer said:
I got to thinking about how many turboprops have actually seen combat.

XBe02Drvr · Apr 23, 2020

nuuumannn said:
This is an F-84F Thunderjet.

I was around and paying attention, back in the day. The F84F fighter bomber was called "Thunderstreak" and the similar-profile RF84F recon version was "Thunderflash". I built models of all of the series.
Nomenclature was a bit confusing, as straight wing versions were all Thunderjets, regardless of their chronology, while swept wings got the fancy names.
Story has it that Republic wanted to start off with a swept wing F86 class machine, but USAAF said no, they wanted something simple, rugged, and AVAILABLE QUICK, not an envelope pusher.
Cheers,
Wes

MIflyer · Apr 23, 2020

I knew a guy who was an acceptance test pilot for the USAF, checking out F-84's of various models at the factory. He had a low opinion of them, and said, "Do you know how Republic designed fighter planes? They found out how much the other companies fighters weighed and doubled it."

herman1rg · Apr 23, 2020

There was also a Prototype called the Thunderscreech which was turboprop powered

GrauGeist · Apr 23, 2020

herman1rg said:
There was also a Prototype called the Thunderscreech which was turboprop powered

Republic's XF-84H

Shortround6 · Apr 23, 2020

MIflyer · Apr 23, 2020

Reportedly, the XF-84H was a CAS aircraft, designed to fly low over the enemy and render them senseless with its sound.

But I have thought about the possibility of installing an Allison V-3420 in a RF-84F to make an Unlimited Racer.

XBe02Drvr · Apr 23, 2020

GrauGeist said:
the USN had little interest in USAF prop types after WWII (with the exception of the A-1 Skyraider)

Actually, the other way round. The Skyraider was a Navy bird which USAF adopted later on, when the Navy was starting to phase them out.

MIflyer · Apr 23, 2020

The USAF version of a Skyraider-type attack aircraft was the Vultee XA-41. Same engine and overall configuration, with four 37MM guns in the wings. Tests at Eglin AFB showed it was less capable of defending itself than P-51/P-47/P-38 carrying bombs.

Turboprops at War

Airman 1st Class

1st Sergeant

1st Lieutenant

Airman 1st Class

Major

Major

Major

Major

Airman 1st Class

Major

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

1st Sergeant

2nd Lieutenant

1st Lieutenant

Master Sergeant

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

Major General

1st Lieutenant

2nd Lieutenant

1st Lieutenant

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