Udet- Germany really did not intend to Invade UK ever.

Soren said:

Hmm, I see the thread has been moved. Ill express my opinion on this later...

To the notion that Hitler was stupid, no he wasn't stupid, he was insane and very "misinformed". He wanted it all at once, and acted like a baby to get it, that was his mistake.

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He was insane, misinformed and he was also stupid

He turned a impoverished country in severe economical drought into a world power, not bad for a totally insane or a stupid person. Now did he turn insane later ??? yes I agree on that part.

Insane, yes.
Misinformed, yes.
Stupid, not so sure.

Would any stupid guy be elected at the head of a country ?

*Looks at the picture of Jean Chrétien* Okay, never mind...

a blessed though that is not quite the word I am looking for........orator. he had the charisma for fact and even today the Alt age groups say he brought Deutschland out of the depression but he did not share at first his dream(s) of total one Europe under his fat thumb. Stupid at this time, yes taking on the Soviet Union, Britain, and then the US and the rest of the Allies.

He had duped the German populace totally during his reign and only from mid 43 did they wake up, too late

Erich said:

a blessed though that is not quite the word I am looking for........orator. he had the charisma for fact and even today the Alt age groups say he brought Deutschland out of the depression but he did not share at first his dream(s) of total one Europe under his fat thumb. Stupid at this time, yes taking on the Soviet Union, Britain, and then the US and the rest of the Allies.

He had duped the German populace totally during his reign and only from mid 43 did they wake up, too late

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Charismatic yes very in the extreme, I have listened to some of his speeches (not that I speak German) and even i was getting excited. Yes like I said taking on Russia, UK, USA all at the same time was stupid (not tactically wise in the least). But that is what I said, he was not a general or even a good strategical mind, not even a good tactical mind.

Hunter368 said:

He turned a impoverished country in severe economical drought into a world power, not bad for a totally insane or a stupid person. Now did he turn insane later ??? yes I agree on that part.

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Many of his ideas were ahead of his time;yes, but he made all of the same mistakes that Napolean Bonapart made, gave up too easily when trying to invade england (probably for the best ) then trying to invade Russia, the Germans in Russia suffered the EXACT same fate that Napoleans men did years prior, Hitler was an ignorant, paranoid, sadistic, idiotic moron, And I thank that hippie haired goteed son of a bitch watchin over me for it because, if Hitler wasnt all those things , who knows? we may still be still be fighting him right now.

In my opinion he was stupid not to let the Generals run the war but after the July 20th assassination attempt he couldn't trust the army. He was also a schizophrenic which didn't help, and I read somewhere is doctor was precribing all kinds of harmful drugs as medicine (cocaine was one if I remember right, as I think was arsenic).

Gnomey said:

In my opinion he was stupid not to let the Generals run the war but after the July 20th assassination attempt he couldn't trust the army. He was also a schizophrenic which didn't help, and I read somewhere is doctor was precribing all kinds of harmful drugs as medicine (cocaine was one if I remember right, as I think was arsenic).

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Actually he should of let his Generals run the whole war. lol Actually I have this great good of all of Hitlers medical problems and all his health issues, just have not gotten aorund to reading it. I have about 75 books just waiting for me to read them, I see a good one I buy it, then I just have to find time to read it.

102first_hussars said:

Hunter368 said:

He turned a impoverished country in severe economical drought into a world power, not bad for a totally insane or a stupid person. Now did he turn insane later ??? yes I agree on that part.

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Many of his ideas were ahead of his time;yes, but he made all of the same mistakes that Napolean Bonapart made, gave up too easily when trying to invade england (probably for the best ) then trying to invade Russia, the Germans in Russia suffered the EXACT same fate that Napoleans men did years prior, Hitler was an ignorant, paranoid, sadistic, idiotic moron, And I thank that hippie haired goteed son of a bitch watchin over me for it because, if Hitler wasnt all those things , who knows? we may still be still be fighting him right now.

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Hussars I agree with all the things you call him but you still can't ignore what he did. Hell if its so easy that any moron can pull a country off its azz and turn it into a world power, then why don't you run for Priminister of Canada? (not saying you are a moron just pointing it out that what he did is not easy, he had to have a few things going for him, whether you liked him or hated him he still did what no normal man could do). Hell you compare him to Napoleon, Napoleon's not bad company to be compared to when comparing leaders of nations. Not alot men have done more to shape or influence this world in the last 100 years then Hitler (even Stalin).

Gnomey said:

In my opinion he was stupid not to let the Generals run the war but after the July 20th assassination attempt he couldn't trust the army. He was also a schizophrenic which didn't help, and I read somewhere is doctor was precribing all kinds of harmful drugs as medicine (cocaine was one if I remember right, as I think was arsenic).

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There is no way he could have been a schizo, that is just too hardcore of a disorder to hide from people.

Udet said:

Mr. Hunter368, hello:

Your first question: yes, English is my first language. I believe it got slightly overwhelmed by another language likewise spoken at home though. Do no pay too much attention to my english, i am crazy, so i speak accordingly (all other languages I am fluent in are all spoken the same).

It took me a few years of reading, seeing and hearing to conclude Germany did not intend to invade England.


Point (2) of your posting pretty much agrees with my views on the matter.
France was not a plan either. They got defeated alongside the British Expeditionary Force. Did Germany unleash any rampage to humilliate the defeated french? Not at all.

Treatment given to the defeated French in 1940 (occupied and non-occupied France, no claims to the french fleet, no claims to France´s african colonies, etc.) adds soundness to the case Mr. Hunter: Hitler´s gesture towards the west was authentic.

Very authentic and consistent. Far more consistent than both France´s and Britain´s contradictory policies in the continent, which lacked any intelligible meaning.

Who´s to deny having battleships Richelieu and Jean Bart -although not yet completed by 1940-, and battlecruisers Dunkerque and Strasbourg plus several more new french cruisers, added to the order of battle of your navy is a bad idea?

This is pure speculation, we will never know what would have happened if Hitler had actually attempted the seizure all those powerful french units and have them deployed to challenge British sea power manned by German crews. The vessels were constantly moving in north african ports, but some of them returned to Toulon.

That was speculation. Now the facts: we do know Hitler never even considered the thought. (Oddly, more french sailors perished to the guns of their British "allies").

I repeat, other than implementing the necessary measures to ensure any combat potential still left for the french would not be deployed against Germany, nothing excessive was imposed to the defeated size.

But Mr. Churchill continued to present Germany as the most fearsome threat, a threat to the continuation of the human species as we know it.


Now, point (3) deserves the following response: No. It was not aimed at you. It was an hypothetical scenario of two guys that have been fighting. One of them seeks peace, but the other guy refuses all offerings issued by the other. The whole situation will flow to reach one point when the guy who sought peace will say "to hell with you. you want a war? you will have it."

Pretty much what Hitler endured during the year of 1940 with Great Britain.

In fact mr. Hunter, had England been a plan for Hitler he would have launched everything out to get it. The outcome? Very difficult to figure out. A bloodbath for sure though.

We agree that when it came to achieve his goals, he did not save any efforts right?

You might re-read my comments and you will find I did say Hitler proceeded further with was the most feasible of the ventures to put the most pressure on England: an air campaign (Battle of Britain), to no avail.

Also you are correct when you say that in the end, the so called Battle of the Atlantic failed to achieve the primary goal. But hey, let´s place us on the platform I am herein referring to: 1940.

Although I have no numbers at hand, I believe the number of U-boats after the fall of France was not that large; still, I see Hitler ordering Admiral Dönitz to deploy as much as possible in the Channel accesses to attempt hindering Royal Navy´s operation against the German invasion force.

But hey, I am not going to move onto the fruitful "what ifs" hemisphere. It is pointless and meaningless. Hitler did not want to invade.

You also agreed with me: his fundamental goal was the east.

This has gotten just too long. Sorry.

Might add more stuff in next days.

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Udet,

I agree that Hitler did not seek out to humiliate the French or UK before WW2 even started other than to maybe stick it to them alittle like they did to Germany after WW1. But once they declared war on him and he saw that no peace was going to happen then it was a different story. Then he realized that he had to conquer them. He could not leave two very powerful enemies in his rear when he knew he was going to wage war in the east sooner or later. So he kicked France's azz and even held back alittle on the BEF in France. Then with France under his shoe (using that victory as an example to UK) he tried to get UK to quit this war and settle. UK wanted no part of that so he had no choice but to attack them, again he knew he could not leave UK behind him when he attacked Russia. So he tried his hardest to crush UK, BoB (to gain control of the air so he could land), if you are saying BoB was staged by Germany for any other reason but to control the skys so German could land troops then let me hear why they did it. Why did they do it?

Battle of the Atlantic trying to starve UK out and prevent anymore supplies from getting to them. Again he was trying to soften UK up to invade them and to reduce his effectiveness to fight/hold on. If you think that this was not the reason tell me why they did it? Why did they do it?

German spent alot of resources doing both battles and lost alot of men and machines. Hitler knew at this point that UK was not going to surrender without a fight. So why did Hitler do this all? No nation can be taken over by planes dropping bombs alone or subs sinking their ships. So he must of intended to invade UK at some point when the time was right. IMHO that is why he waged both BoB and Battle of Atlantic, if you do not agree then tell me why he did it.

The point you bring up about the French navy is a good one I like that one. But I do not think he would of been able to get his little hands on those ships anyways (at least not all of them), they were either not in French ports in France or they would of been sunk by the English (some were I believe) and some would of been scuttled by the French themselves. But good point.

You said this to: " I repeat, other than implementing the necessary measures to ensure any combat potential still left for the french would not be deployed against Germany, nothing excessive was imposed to the defeated size."

That is true but he needed his troops else where so he had beaten his enemy but did not want to humiliate him b/c it would of meant he would have to keep more troops in France to either deal with the French underground or would of have to fought what France had still left of army and he did not want to risk (for no reason) losing anymore of his Panzers when he knew he was going to need them soon else where.

You said then : "But Mr. Churchill continued to present Germany as the most fearsome threat, a threat to the continuation of the human species as we know it."

Yes he did and his was right about that. Based on how Hitler got to power and what he did allow to happen under his name makes Churchill justified by saying this.

Then you said : In fact mr. Hunter, had England been a plan for Hitler he would have launched everything out to get it. The outcome? Very difficult to figure out. A bloodbath for sure though.

I say he did everything he could. air force, Uboats, could not send surface fleets it would of been crushed, so I think he did do everything he could.

Then you said : Also you are correct when you say that in the end, the so called Battle of the Atlantic failed to achieve the primary goal. But hey, let´s place us on the platform I am herein referring to: 1940.

Ok that is what I meant, true maybe the Battle of the Atlantic maybe started officially later but I mean Hitler using his Uboats to try and cut of UK from the world. He did try this.

Then you said : Although I have no numbers at hand, I believe the number of U-boats after the fall of France was not that large; still, I see Hitler ordering Admiral Dönitz to deploy as much as possible in the Channel accesses to attempt hindering Royal Navy´s operation against the German invasion force.

You are right the Uboats totals were very low at the time but it would of been interesting to see them in the straits and near UK trying to intersect and sink UK capital ships. That would of been interesting.

Then you say: You also agreed with me: his fundamental goal was the east.

100%, before the war even started Hitler wanted to invade Russia for living space for the German people.

Then: "This has gotten just too long. Sorry."

No sorry needed this is why we are here to talk and I enjoyed it. I think we agree on some things about this discussion and disagree on some of the other details but I love to talk about it. Look forward to your reply.

Hunter368 said:

He turned a impoverished country in severe economical drought into a world power, not bad for a totally insane or a stupid person. Now did he turn insane later ??? yes I agree on that part.

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You have to understand what Germany was going through before Hitler came to power. I asked my grandmother what she thought of Hitler when he first took power and she told me this: "He gave me hope."

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

Hunter368 said:

He turned a impoverished country in severe economical drought into a world power, not bad for a totally insane or a stupid person. Now did he turn insane later ??? yes I agree on that part.

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You have to understand what Germany was going through before Hitler came to power. I asked my grandmother what she thought of Hitler when he first took power and she told me this: "He gave me hope."

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I agree

sometimes with the best intentions or the "look of" reveals the evilest intentions

By the way, gents. Hitler and his nazi party never was elected in a justified way. The best results for the NS party were in 1932, but Hindenburg repeatedly refused to acknowledge Hitler as chancelor, instead he accepted others. By 1933 his party received substantial losses in votes and all believed the brown storm was over (indeed the peoples will to vote was very polarized, either NS-party or communists), so Hindenburg accepted a minority gouvernment with chancelor Hitler. This was only possible by excluding the communists results from the whole election and add those far left votes to the NS-party! Under recent impresion this must be considered therefor as a fake election. Technically in 1933 less around 30% of the votes were for Hitler.

Yes you are correct Erich and delycros that is correct also.

A sane Hitler, and that's an oxymoron, that had a burning desire in his heart to annex the British Isles when he rose to power in 1933 could have easily set this as a goal to be reached. Remember when Hitler said something it was absolute no matter how seasoned generals appealed to his better sense or those close to him rationalized with him. IF he'd wanted to ultimately take England back in 1933 and would have left Russia alone he would have done it. Most certainly if GB was connected by land to France the Wehrnmacht would have rolled in and ultimately conquered the country.

The whole scenario of WW2 in Europe had no purposeful clockwork plan unfolding. Everything, literally everything in the form of weaponry that could have been developed was halted due to the simple fact that Hitler envisioned short intense conflicts therefore long-term projects for thing like jets or nuclear weapons were seen as not cost effective.

Hitler had this concept that the folks in Britain saw things as plainly as he did- that communist Russia was mankind's threat and they'd fight them together. Counting on them as a future allie there was no reason in his freaky mind to make long-tern seige plans against England.

Twitch said:

Hitler had this concept that the folks in Britain saw things as plainly as he did- that communist Russia was mankind's threat and they'd fight them together. Counting on them as a future allie there was no reason in his freaky mind to make long-tern seige plans against England.

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I find that very hard to believe, sorry.

so do I

I also.

Hitler rarely thought of working with anyone long term. It was about what he wanted or what he envisioned how things should be. Hitler wanted to unite the German speaking people and to gain living space in the east (aka Russia) for his German people to populate. Where he ran into problems is when UK and France did not see things the same way, when he kept taking land in Europe finally they said NO when he invaded Poland. Then he was forced to react to them with war. Its just he could not finish what he started (aka war with UK) before his ego/desire to start a war with Russia got him into further trouble. IMHO