Urban combat in Brazil.

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CharlesBronson

CharlesBronson

Senior Master Sergeant
3,568
89
Jan 11, 2005
Cordoba - Argentina
If you think about fierce urban combat you think in...what?

Stalingrad?

Rostov ?

Monte Cassino ?

Falluja maybe ?

well none of that man, I am talking about the streets of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo.




View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ZhOxSIRlc



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rg70brrB6g



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGiRHGNBAo0



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk8aOviAr04

2nc2zkn.jpg




View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky32gRO_YUM
 
Sure am glad that the police in the US don't "spray and pray". No such thing as fire discipline in Brazil, I guess. :rolleyes: Not sure who I would be more afraid of.
 
Matt308 said:
Sure am glad that the police in the US don't "spray and pray". No such thing as fire discipline in Brazil, I guess. :rolleyes: Not sure who I would be more afraid of.
Click to expand...

if you live in a poor comunity wheres the dealers rules, you might think that way.

but is nice to remember how much a american policemen earns and how much a brazilian policemen earns for risk his live in even worst situations.

also the strategic situation in this "urban battlefield". the dealers are in top of hills, full of tight streets and many small habitations that dealers uses to hiding since they rules in the poor neighborhood. so its not a plain area with open and straight streets, its a very hard scenario.

ill say a thing that herr adler said to me sometimes and besides disagree with his opinions i agree with that: you have to be there to see what really happends.
 
JugBR, there are many, many, many US policemen and sherriffs that make barely enough money to be classified above poverty in the US. What is disappointing is that Brazil has such a wonderful culture and technical industry that is truly world class. Yet to battle these drug thugs, it appears that Brazil has hired untrained security personnel whose tactics look to be everybit as dangerous as the drug lords. In CBs post, you literally have a security individual firing an M16 indiscrimenantly unaimed fire into the civilian housing.

In the US, that man would be found so negligent as to likely be jailed, even if nobody was hurt.
 
In the US, that man would be found so negligent as to likely be jailed, even if nobody was hurt.
Click to expand...

Definately, and that shows how bad the situation is right now, it has been progresively deteriorated from the late 1970s when the drug cartels became stronger and stronger.

And the big problem is nobody cares...nobody cares about anything, neither the criminals to blown your head off for a pair of tennis shoes nor the police to kill a innocent bistanders in order to blast a suspected criminal occuped house.

Really lame situation.

0_61_123006_brazil_violence.jpg
 
Matt308 said:
JugBR, there are many, many, many US policemen and sherriffs that make barely enough money to be classified above poverty in the US. What is disappointing is that Brazil has such a wonderful culture and technical industry that is truly world class. Yet to battle these drug thugs, it appears that Brazil has hired untrained security personnel whose tactics look to be everybit as dangerous as the drug lords. In CBs post, you literally have a security individual firing an M16 indiscrimenantly unaimed fire into the civilian housing.

In the US, that man would be found so negligent as to likely be jailed, even if nobody was hurt.
Click to expand...

a normal "policia militar"(police officer) earns R$ 874.00 a month -> USD 546,25 (USD 1 : R$ 1,6).

for a day, risking his life, the brazilian cop earns USD 18,21

you get what you pay for :(

I am strongly in favour to give better salaries for cops, and also the best training possible to avoid situation like that you saw. then we would have the right to charge them if they do mistakes.

otherwise i just can say for the money they earns for the training they have, those guys are heroes, or almost that. of course this situation incentivates a lot corruption under security forces. but the great part of them are not corrupt. but they are very rude with criminals and also sometimes with nom-criminals. but i wouldnt do better earning that much to risk my life against an urban al qaeda.
 
CharlesBronson said:
Definately, and that shows how bad the situation is right now, it has been progresively deteriorated from the late 1970s when the drug cartels became stronger and stronger.

And the big problem is nobody cares...nobody cares about anything, neither the criminals to blown your head off for a pair of tennis shoes nor the police to kill a innocent bistanders in order to blast a suspected criminal occuped house.

Really lame situation.

0_61_123006_brazil_violence.jpg
Click to expand...

i believe 70´s is quite exagerated, since the comando vermelho born in 80´s as an criminal organization and in 70´s we had the dicatureship yeat wich means the drugs problem was almost insignificant. also the cocaine in brazil started to be a real problem in begining of 80´s, before that, people just smokes marihuana here.

since the economy is growing and the investidors are bringing money, the situation is improving, because theres more jobs for the population and the police slowly is crushing the cocaine/guns trade routes. this new governor of rio de janeiro, sergio amaral is doing very strong policies to combat the crime. the deal is to cut the supply lines of drug dealers.

also, the social policies of lula are helping prevent poor kids to enter in crime.
 
Matt308 said:
More than lame, CB. A world crisis. Because if Brazil doesn't get their $hit together, it will spread to your and my country.
Click to expand...

the problem is that in your country, like mine theres a great consumption of cocaine. we should "beat some noses" you know what i mean ?

certainty matt, the crime is a united worldwide organization, do you doubts theres conection between cartel de cali, in colombia, comando vermelho, in brazil and gangs of los angeles and new york ?

a great deal was the prision of j. carlos abadia in brazil. i think its a great mark, because the big guys now are falling too. thats not just the street dealers.
 
JugBR said:
certainty matt, the crime is a united worldwide organization, do you doubts theres conection between cartel de cali, in colombia, comando vermelho, in brazil and gangs of los angeles and new york ?
Click to expand...


No doubts, Jug.

And my comments about the US policeman/sherriffs pay purposesly did not include a yearly salary. Poverty in one person's country does not equate to anothers.
 
believe 70´s is quite exagerated, since the comando vermelho born in 80´s as an criminal organization and in 70´s we had the dicatureship yeat wich means the drugs problem was almost insignificant. also the cocaine in brazil started to be a real problem in begining of 80´s, before that, people just smokes marihuana here.

since the economy is growing and the investidors are bringing money, the situation is improving, because theres more jobs for the population and the police slowly is crushing the cocaine/guns trade routes. this new governor of rio de janeiro, sergio amaral is doing very strong policies to combat the crime. the deal is to cut the supply lines of drug dealers.
Click to expand...

You are right but remember the infamous "death squads" of the mid 1970s wich were a response ( illegal and desproportionate) to the already high criminal rate.

I am not very convinced that a economic growth ( even always good) would help in this situation, I think you need a real shock to counter this, like would be bulldozing the slums and relocate the dwellers in a cleaner and safer enviroment with straigth, illuminated streets and providing all basic services wich many them dont have right now.

If you cant do that you will have more than a half of the problem solved. Because it would be more difficult to the drug lords atract people to his "cause" and it would made easier to the police to patrol and control the area.

It is a huge task I know, both economically and politically, Brazil have the resources but I am not sure if it have politicians with the balls big enough to carry out this desission.
 
CharlesBronson said:
You are right but remember the infamous "death squads" of the mid 1970s wich were a response ( illegal and desproportionate) to the already high criminal rate.

I am not very convinced that a economic growth ( even always good) would help in this situation, I think you need a real shock to counter this, like would be bulldozing the slums and relocate the dwellers in a cleaner and safer enviroment with straigth, illuminated streets and providing all basic services wich many them dont have right now.

If you cant do that you will have more than a half of the problem solved. Because it would be more difficult to the drug lords atract people to his "cause" and it would made easier to the police to patrol and control the area.

It is a huge task I know, both economically and politically, Brazil have the resources but I am not sure if it have politicians with the balls big enough to carry out this desission.
Click to expand...

the death squads of brazil was a example of the crazy right wing brazilian dicatureship. the creation of rota(rondas ostensivas tobias aguiar) was also very problematic. the rota was a corp os paulista police, created by governor paulo maluf, that had total liberty to kill and torturate, what they tought suspect.

until today the rota slogan is "what go creates, rota kills"

and the bope slogan is "what devil send, bope sends back"

but bope in rio de janeiro was a kind less out of control than rota in their creation. at least the bope is know as the "elite troop" os brazilian police and besides the cases of corruption is know as a very rude but eficient corp.

the crime in brazil in that time was minor than 1/10000 of that we see today. the big problem was that crime ration in dicatatureship times stay down by that huge opressor machine. a homeless who steal a candy from a shop could be spanked almot to die in that times.

then we had the democratization, the economic crisis, heritage from militar dicatators, led the army and the polices to a miserable state, it opened the frontiers to enter cocaine, weapons, etc... the corruption in politics allow the grow of criminal organizations and the battle of diferent criminal organizations creating the armed militias in favelas.

the movie "cidade de deus"(city of god) portraits very well how organizations like comando vermelho become powerfull. and how situation deteriorates.

also a good movie is "trope de elite"(elite troop) that show some bit of bope reality.

i think now, we have to combat the crime. but we also have to give a better quality of life for people of favelas. but we cant do that until defeat militias and control the situation. i agree with you charlie. economic groth by itself dont kill the crime, but could give a job for a poor teenager and avoid him to enter in crime. and education also is very important, education for the people in favelas, and also for people outside that.

some clips of these 2 interesting movies. charlie, i gess u can find these movies in dvd easy to rent in argentina, but i gess in usa would be a little bit difficult to find these movies in dvd to rent matt.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUf7vhC_ouI


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V_nZNWPYQk
 
Well, yea police corruption is part of the problem but I was talking about solutions.

I didnt saw Cuidad de dios but I saw Tropa de Elite, amazing movie I must say very good narrative stile.8)
 
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