US strategy and tactics for Midway if IJN has radar, CIC and radios in the Zeros

[The Basket]

I don't class the Kongos as battleships but as battle cruisers.

But yes the Kongos were fast enough. Mainly due to Kaga being a giant anchor. Soyru was a jet fighter in comparison.

The use of superior speed was to get in and out of Dodge as quickly as possible. Going Fuso dog slow was no help at all. Just gives the enemy time to reload.

All ships in 1942 had inferior AAA compared to 1945. The IJA had plenty of barrels by 1945 but not good ones.

 

[Shortround6]

The Japanese battleships (Yamato excepted) carried 4 twin 5in AA Mounts in 1942 So did most of the heavy cruisers. The Battleships provided no additional AA protection compared to heavy Cruisers.

Any additional 25mm guns the Battleships/battle cruisers may have carried over the Heavy cruisers aren't going to count much. The 25mm AA gun was shorter ranged than the 40mm Bofors and not likely to contribute to another ships defense at normal ship spacing.

The presence of any Japanese battleships with the carriers would have been of marginal benefit.

 

[The Basket]

Marginal.

But does offer more barrels and more floatplanes and more targets and maybe some enemy aircraft go for the battleships.

All theoretically

 

[SaparotRob]

I can't remember where I heard/saw/read this that IJN doctrine was CAP and ship maneuver to deal with air attack. A BB would get in the way.

 

[MikeMeech]

I can't remember where I heard/saw/read this that IJN doctrine was CAP and ship maneuver to deal with air attack. A BB would get in the way.

The book 'Sunburst, The rise of Japanese Naval Air Power, 1909-1941' by Mark R Peattie, pages 155-159, covers some of this subject, extract below:

Another useful source is 'Fighters over the Fleet' by Norman Friedman, particularly pages 99-103. I am sure there are other titles that cover the subject as well.

Mike

 

[SaparotRob]

Sounds like a couple of interesting books. Thanks for posting that.

 

[The Basket]

Yes they carriers would maneuver to avoid been hit.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I can't remember where I heard/saw/read this that IJN doctrine was CAP and ship maneuver to deal with air attack. A BB would get in the way.

Drachinifel's interview with Parshall there, I believe.

 

[The Basket]

I recall I made an excellent thread on the value of the battleship. Full of my superb wisdom.

And kinda trashing on the battleship here as a bit useless. So perhaps this thread is showing that even I can be mistaken.

Violent maneuvering has a downside of restricting aircraft movement on the carrier and also having to keep the decks clear for the CAP.

This is why the counterstrike was constantly delayed.

 

[The Basket]

Had Arashi had radar then that would have detected the dive bombers earlier giving important warning.

 

[GrauGeist]

The CAP would have had warning, yes, but to what end?
They had been drawn down to the deck to counter the torpedo bombers and many were already low on fuel and ammunition.

When the SBDs struck, there were some fighters that had been aboard refueling and rearming, but their timing was off.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Well the scouts have radar. Picket Destroyers have radar. The Kates have radar. Carriers have radar and the Kongos have radar directed flak.

So not well. The USN carriers will quickly be discovered and any USN air fleet will be quickly picked up.

So the usual. Chaff, fly very low, electronic warfare, radio jamming or spoofing. Feints. Decoys.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to hypothetically credit IJN in June '42 with all the sophistication of 1945. Of course, it's all a bunch of "what ifs", but given the state of Japan's electronics industry at the time, imagining parity with US would be a bit of a stretch, but at least marginally plausible. Crediting them with 1945 vintage technology seems a little over the top.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The CAP would have had warning, yes, but to what end?

I'd think that would depend on the range of the radar. If, while fighting the TBDs, they'd picked up radar contacts coming from the SW and NE (Yorktown's and Enterprise's SBDs) -- and if the damned radios worked in the Zeroes-- could they not have cycled CAP more efficiently to defend against the DBs?

Admittedly still a long shot for the time-crunch involved, but perhaps?

 

[Admiral Beez]

The CAP would have had warning, yes, but to what end?
They had been drawn down to the deck to counter the torpedo bombers and many were already low on fuel and ammunition.

When the SBDs struck, there were some fighters that had been aboard refueling and rearming, but their timing was off.

Per my opening post, in addition to radar the IJN has working radios in their fighters and CIC. So, the IJN CIC is aware of the approaching HA SBD aircraft and will be directing much of its fighter force to remain at HA.

 

[GrauGeist]

The A6M2 hate a rate of climb of roughly 3,150 fpm and the SBDs were coming in over 12,000 feet from two different directions.

 

[The Basket]

Had Arashi realized it had a tail then it could have gone West and led the Dauntless away. So Kaga and Akagi would have survived. Soryu not so much. But that's 3 carriers launching against 3 carriers so that's game on.

 

[SaparotRob]

The A6M2 hate a rate of climb of roughly 3,150 fpm and the SBDs were coming in over 12,000 feet from two different directions.

In one of the two Midway vids with Jon Parshall did with Drachinel (the shorter one), Mr. Parshall mentions the time between attacks. There was about a twenty minute or so gap between the first two TBD attacks and the arrival of the Enterprise SBDs and the Yorktown groups. He specifically pointed out there was plenty of time for the Zeros to climb to altitude.

 

[The Basket]

Check out VT-3.

To my data, VT-3 were still been engaged when the dive bombers struck.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Check out VT-3.

To my data, VT-3 were still been engaged when the dive bombers struck.

Yorktown's group had the experience; they knew how to put together a coordinated attack.

 

[SaparotRob]

Check out VT-3.

To my data, VT-3 were still been engaged when the dive bombers struck.

Oh great. Now I have homework to do.