US strategy and tactics for Midway if IJN has radar, CIC and radios in the Zeros

[The Basket]

VT-3 were being escorted by Wildcats. This meant they survived long enough to launch.

Also they shot down a few Zeroes. This led to the top cover coming down. So Thatch did a good job here.

This was happening exact time frame as the dive bombing.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

VT-3 were being escorted by Wildcats. This meant they survived long enough to launch.

Also they shot down a few Zeroes. This led to the top cover coming down. So Thatch did a good job here.

This was happening exact time frame as the dive bombing.

Shattered Sword.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

VT-3 were being escorted by Wildcats. This meant they survived long enough to launch.

Also they shot down a few Zeroes. This led to the top cover coming down. So Thatch did a good job here.

This was happening exact time frame as the dive bombing.

I don't know that the TBDs shot any Zeroes down.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Per my opening post, in addition to radar the IJN has working radios in their fighters and CIC. So, the IJN CIC is aware of the approaching HA SBD aircraft and will be directing much of its fighter force to remain at HA.

Unlikely IJN would have anything more than a first generation shipboard air search radar, and given the low profile of their carrier islands, it would have a rather short radar horizon and a consequently steeper line of sight, limiting detection range, no matter how efficient its propagation performance. Also,it would likely not have height finding capability, thus limiting early determination of the nature and altitude of the threat.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I don't know that the TBDs shot any Zeroes down.

I think somebody's tail gunner got one.

 

[The Basket]

I don't know that the TBDs shot any Zeroes down.

The Wildcats did the shoot shoot.

Me no English speak good.

 

[SaparotRob]

The Wildcats did the shoot shoot.

Me no English speak good.

I don't talk good eloquent very well either.

 

[The Basket]

Normally I can quote Shakespeare but I am trying to work from home and be lazy and answer this forum as well as having to deal with various females annoying me.

It's a total snafu. So you will have to cut me some slack Jack.

 

[SaparotRob]

Wilco.

 

[The Basket]

VT-8 attack was about 0930h
VT-6 attack was about 0945h
VT-3 attack with Wildcats was 1010-1035h

The Dauntless attack was 1022-1026h which by sheer luck was done simultaneously on Hiryu, Kaga and Akagi.

So as you can see, the VT-3 plus escorting Wildcats were attacking same time as the dive bombers. The Wildcats and the famous Thatch Weave was dragging more and more Zeroes in and the Devastators were surviving long enough to be a threat.

 

[SaparotRob]

VT-8 attack was about 0930h
VT-6 attack was about 0945h
VT-3 attack with Wildcats was 1010-1035h

The Dauntless attack was 1022-1026h which by sheer luck was done simultaneously on Hiryu, Kaga and Akagi.

So as you can see, the VT-3 plus escorting Wildcats were attacking same time as the dive bombers. The Wildcats and the famous Thatch Weave was dragging more and more Zeroes in and the Devastators were surviving long enough to be a threat.

That was the point being made. The Yorktown strike arrived about twenty minutes after the Enterprise torpedo strike. The A6M's had time to get up to SBD altitude. As to forming up an organized and efficient CAP, I think we covered that.
I am so glad you saved me the trouble of looking it up. Did I mention I was the slow kid in class?

 

[The Basket]

What was IJN CAP doctrine?

No idea.

This is the crux.

How many Zeroes should be flying?
What was the fuel load?
What altitude should they be flying?
Do they stick to an altitude?
Who decides the targets?

VT-3 and the Wildcats shot down 7 Zeroes so other Zeroes came in. Should the high altitude CAP have stayed at altitude? Was that doctrine? Or was it the individual pilots or the shotai leader?

So PhD time research needed.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

So as you can see, the VT-3 plus escorting Wildcats were attacking same time as the dive bombers. The Wildcats and the famous Thatch Weave was dragging more and more Zeroes in and the Devastators were surviving long enough to be a threat.

The Yorktown strike arrived about twenty minutes after the Enterprise torpedo strike. The A6M's had time to get up to SBD altitude.

We seem to have a contradiction here. The Japanese evasive gyrations and VT3's attempts to maneuver for a hammer and anvil strike on Hiryu under her cloud cover resulted in that torpedo attack stretching out over 25 minutes, the last few of which coincided with the Dauntless attacks on the other carriers. This and the unexpected tough nut of the Thach weave so frustrated the Zero pilots that way too many of them were piling on to avenge this professional insult.
CAP doctrine in IJN was complicated and somewhat sloppily executed by many Zero pilots, who hated the assignment and detested any sort of defensive missions. Their ethos, like all Japanese warrior traditions was all about attack. Midway was the first occasion in the history of Kido Butai that the CAP had to deal with a serious multi faceted existential threat, and their adherence to such doctrine as there was had grown lax. There's a discussion of these topics in "Shattered Sword".

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

We seem to have a contradiction here. The Japanese evasive gyrations and VT3's attempts to maneuver for a hammer and anvil strike resulted in that torpedo attack stretching out over 25 minutes, the last few of which coincided with the Dauntless attacks. This and the unexpected tough nut of the Thach weave so frustrated the Zero pilots that way too many of them were piling on to avenge this professional insult.
CAP doctrine in IJN was complicated and somewhat sloppily executed by many Zero pilots, who hated the assignment and detested any sort of defensive missions. Their ethos, like all Japanese warrior traditions was all about attack. Midway was the first occasion in the history of Kido Butai that the CAP had to deal with a serious multi faceted existential threat, and their adherence to such doctrine as there was had grown lax. There's a discussion of these topics in "Shattered Sword".

Not to belittle their efforts, but it seems to me that there was a bit of glory-hunting and not as much discipline in their actions that day.

I'm no pilot, especially no combat pilot, so apply salt liberally: The absence of command-and-control facilities really harmed Japanese defensive prospects. This only made the response more disorganized -- not a good thing for fleet defense.

 

[GrauGeist]

By the way, it was Akagi, Soryu and Kaga that were stricken in the initial attack. Hiryu, who had become separated from the fleet when the SB2Us attacked her, was to the north and escaped the SBD attacks at 10:22 & 10:25 that morning.

But her time would soon be up...

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Not to belittle their efforts, but it seems to me that there was a bit of glory-hunting and not as much discipline in their actions that day.

I'm no pilot, especially no combat pilot, so apply salt liberally: The absence of command-and-control facilities really harmed Japanese defensive prospects. This only made the response more disorganized -- not a good thing for fleet defense.

Defense was anathema to Japanese thinking, and tended to be downplayed or even ignored. Think about damage control on ships, civil defense in their tinderbox cities, the effort put into antiaircraft weapons, the use of commerce raiders, just about anything that doesn't have the glamour of a major warship vs warship attack.
Japanese sub skippers, when presented with a perfect shot at a nice fat fleet oiler or ammunition ship, would usually elect to save their torpedoes for a more "worthy" target, such as a major warship. The concept of warfare as a logistical exercise was foreign to them.

 

[The Basket]

By the way, it was Akagi, Soryu and Kaga that were stricken in the initial attack. Hiryu, who had become separated from the fleet when the SB2Us attacked her, was to the north and escaped the SBD attacks at 10:22 & 10:25 that morning.

But her time would soon be up...

I can travel between time and space so in my reality, it was Hiryu that was hit first. So technically I am correct.

I will have to remember that I have to speak about your reality time frame. So yes Soryu was hit first.

 

[The Basket]

When the Hiryu ***wink wink*** counter strike happened, the Vals were escorted by Zeroes.

On the way, the Zeroes found a bunch of stragglers Dauntless and decides to give them a go. Leaving the Vals so when the Wildcats appear, the Vals are vulnerable and Vals go down.

Had the Zeroes performed a proper escort mission, instead of chasing glory, then the first strike against Yorktown would have been heavier and perhaps more decisive. More Vals would have attacked.

So if Japanese pilots are thinking with their busihido and not their brains then they are not soldiers but a mob. You have to follow orders or people die, it's that simple.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I can travel between time and space so in my reality, it was Hiryu that was hit first. So technically I am correct.

I will have to remember that I have to speak about your reality time frame. So yes Soryu was hit first.

Actually you were very nearly historically correct as well. As the SBDs were pushing over into their dives over the first three victims, Hiryu was under her rain cloud dodging torpedoes from VT3. Three of the TBDs got inside 800 yards to make their drops, but only one of their torpedoes ran true, missing Hiryu's stern by a gnat's hair. The lieutenant leading the pursuing Zeroes was shot down by friendly fire.

 

[The Basket]

Getting hit by an American torpedo in 1942 is perfectly safe.

Better chance winning lottery.