USAAF aircraft losses

Mat1899

Recruit
3
0
May 16, 2017
Hi there!

Can somebody tell me the numbers lost of USAAF major types (B-17, P-51, etc.) in WWII. USAAF Statistical Digest only shows losses by aircraft category (heavy bombers, fighters....)

Thanks in advice!
 

GregP

Captain
8,548
4,836
Jul 28, 2003
Chino, California, U.S.A.
Here's a list I put together some years back. It's still the best I have found, and comes from two sources noted at the top of the list. Doesn't have everything you asked about, but I could add bombers when I get time. Cheers.

Kills and Losses.jpg
 

GregP

Captain
8,548
4,836
Jul 28, 2003
Chino, California, U.S.A.
when your airplane is based in the Pacific and your range is about 200 miles, you ain't gonna find too many things that can shoot at you. When they don't assign you to missions where the enemy is in Europe, it's hard to get shot down, seeing as how you actually need to be over enemy territory for flak to show up.

I think it was more of lack of opportunity to get shot down.
 

Geoffrey Sinclair

Senior Airman
417
753
Sep 30, 2021
Technically using table 76, new production, and table 84, end of month inventory, you can use the USAAAF statistical digest to give an idea of monthly losses (loss = inventory last month + new production – inventory this month) but as a monthly guide only at best, if all you want is a war total (end November 1941 to end August 1945) then it would be a good initial all cause loss figure, remembering as 1945 went on aircraft began to be sold off as well as scrapped as excess to requirements. Also using the various loss tables to see if the figures reconcile.

As expected different reports have different numbers.

For operations the Eighth Air Force reports B-17 226,332 total sorties, 203,358 credit, 185,704 effective, 1,018 Category E, 3,210 MIA = 4,228 losses. B-24 102,258 total sorties, 90,583 credit, 78,914 effective, 544 Category E, 1,562 MIA = 1,630 losses. Totals 328,590 sorties, 293,841 credit, 264,618 effective, 1,562 Category E, 4,296 MIA = 5,858 losses. The USAAF Statistical digest has 5,548 heavy bomber losses of which 2,452 to enemy aircraft, 2,439 to flak and 657 to other causes from 332,904 airborne and 274,921 effective sorties.

Operations, light and medium bomber losses, 9th Air Force report to left of x, USAAF Statistical Digest to right.

MonthLossesLossesLossesxTotalEnemyAnti Air-Other
MonthMIACAT ETotalxTotalAircraftCraftOther
Nov-43​
6​
0​
6​
x
11​
3​
7​
1​
Dec-43​
2​
5​
7​
x
6​
1​
5​
Jan-44​
3​
3​
6​
x
5​
1​
2​
2​
Feb-44​
14​
6​
20​
x
19​
4​
14​
1​
Mar-44​
10​
8​
18​
x
15​
2​
9​
4​
Apr-44​
30​
12​
42​
x
32​
1​
25​
6​
May-44​
43​
27​
70​
x
45​
10​
28​
7​
Jun-44​
46​
20​
66​
x
44​
25​
12​
7​
Jul-44​
32​
23​
55​
x
34​
5​
23​
6​
Aug-44​
39​
38​
77​
x
91​
2​
75​
14​
Sep-44​
13​
12​
25​
x
27​
0​
25​
2​
Oct-44​
16​
15​
31​
x
26​
0​
24​
2​
Nov-44​
17​
13​
30​
x
31​
1​
18​
12​
Dec-44​
55​
44​
99​
x
118​
42​
48​
28​
Jan-45​
18​
36​
54​
x
58​
0​
28​
30​
Feb-45​
46​
40​
86​
x
85​
4​
68​
13​
Mar-45​
35​
45​
80​
x
89​
5​
52​
32​
Apr-45​
20​
13​
33​
x
46​
11​
18​
17​
May-45​
x
1943​
8​
5​
13​
x
17​
4​
12​
1​
1944​
318​
221​
539​
x
487​
93​
303​
91​
1945​
119​
134​
253​
x
278​
20​
166​
92​
Grand
445​
360​
805​
x
782​
117​
481​
184​

9th Air Force report. Battle Losses

A/C TypeFlakFlakFlakE/AcE/AcE/AcOtherOtherOtherTotalsTotalsTotals
CategoryLostCAT ETotalLostCAT ETotalLostCAT ETotalLostCAT ETotal
A-20
56​
36​
92​
0​
34​
43​
77​
90​
79​
169​
A-26
20​
10​
30​
2​
2​
4​
13​
16​
29​
35​
28​
63​
B-26
204​
116​
320​
47​
13​
60​
69​
124​
193​
320​
253​
573​
The 9th Air Force report does have monthly figures by type, for example, P-47
MonthTotalCreditEffectiveLossesLossesLosses
MonthSortiesSortiesSortiesMIACAT ETotal
Feb-44​
1163​
1098​
1096​
5​
5​
Mar-44​
3957​
3694​
3694​
6​
1​
7​
Apr-44​
5605​
5465​
5307​
14​
5​
19​
May-44​
15653​
15079​
14618​
44​
8​
52​
Jun-44​
22498​
21994​
21215​
186​
24​
210​
Jul-44​
17957​
17594​
16636​
134​
20​
154​
Aug-44​
19048​
18688​
18140​
149​
12​
161​
Sep-44​
14331​
13771​
12997​
65​
25​
90​
Oct-44​
13269​
12823​
12058​
69​
23​
92​
Nov-44​
9631​
9431​
9133​
74​
18​
92​
Dec-44​
12740​
12507​
12273​
128​
26​
154​
Jan-45​
8739​
8633​
8438​
77​
13​
90​
Feb-45​
13593​
13518​
13286​
68​
17​
85​
Mar-45​
25069​
24969​
24307​
112​
38​
150​
Apr-45​
16926​
16641​
16052​
73​
17​
90​
May-45​
1367​
1286​
1200​
4​
2​
6​
1944​
135852​
132144​
127167​
874​
162​
1036​
1945​
65694​
65047​
63283​
334​
87​
421​
Grand
201546​
197191​
190450​
1208​
249​
1457​

USN definition of ACTION SORTIES Number of planes taking off on a mission which eventuated in an attack on an enemy target or in aerial combat, or both. This basis of tabulation was the number of planes of one squadron taking off on the mission. If any of these planes had action, the entire squadron's planes on the mission were counted as action sorties, including abortive planes, planes which reached the target but did not attack, and planes which escorted or patrolled but did not engage in combat. Thus if 16 VP took off as escort, 2 returned early, 2 engaged in combat, and 4 strafed, all 16 were counted as action sorties. Likewise if 8 planes took off for CAP, and only 2 engaged in combat, all 8 were action sorties. On the other hand, if 8 VF took off for escort, and none engaged in any sort of attack or combat, then none were counted as action sorties, even though they reached the target, and even though escorted bombers attacked the target. Likewise, CAP planes missions, none of whose planes engaged in combat were not counted as action sorties.

In table 16 of NAVAL AVIATION COMBAT STATISTICS—WORLD WAR II in 1944 and 1945 the Pacific Theatre land based Marine F4U and FG units that were considered to be in action flew a total of 201,352 sorties, lost 131 aircraft on 50,118 action sorties, a rate of 0.26138 per 100 sorties, they also lost 372 aircraft on 151,234 other flights at a rate of 0.24598 per 100 sorties. (the table loss rates are 0.26 and 0.25) the land based navy squadrons added another 2,123 sorties, 742 of which were action. There were another 349 F4U action sorties not in the above as the branch of service could not be identified.

Using table 1 the F4U and FG flew 64,501 action sorties.

For the same conditions as above the PBJ units flew 20,770 sorties, of which 8,390 were action, losing 12 on action sorties, 23 on other sorties, 2 on the ground, which totals 37 but the "total including enemy action" in the table is 55, a difference of 18.

While the USAAF definitions were

Sortie: A sortie is an aircraft airborne on a mission against the enemy (synonymous with terms 'aircraft dispatched", "aircraft airborne", and "aircraft taking off", previously used.

Aircraft Credit Sortie: An aircraft credit sortie is deemed to have taken place when an airplane, ordered on an operational mission and in the performance of that mission, has entered an area where enemy anti-aircraft fire may be effective, or where usual enemy fighter patrols occur, or when the airplane is in any way subjected to entry attack. (Definition previously used for sortie to the ETO)

Non-Effective Sortie: A non-effective sortie is a sortie which for any reason fails to carry out the purpose of the mission. (Synonymous with the term "abortive".)
 

drgondog

Captain
8,700
4,338
Jun 28, 2006
Scurry, Texas
Here's a list I put together some years back. It's still the best I have found, and comes from two sources noted at the top of the list. Doesn't have everything you asked about, but I could add bombers when I get time. Cheers.

View attachment 683359
Hi Greg - the "4950" air victory credits for P-51 cited by Wagner on pg 133 was not sourced by footnote. The 'number' sourced by USAF 85 in aggragate and by Olynyk in detail was north of 5900 (I'll have to dig for last pass by Olynk). Recall that you helped cross check my USAAF and Study 85 numbers of 4207 (+) for just the ETO alone, MTO was north of 1100 and CBI was north of 600. Additionally the Commonealth added 330+ (Olynyk and Shores working on final when Frank passed this spring).

So 'final' for AAF was 5900+ and RAF/RAAF, etc was 330+

Ground scores cited above were for 8th AF, but as you know may theatres were 'sloppy' in accunting for them a the respective commands did not count them except in operational post mission intelligence summaries - many of which were lost to history. IIRC the USN/USMC was very sloppy regarding ground destruction claims -
 

Mat1899

Recruit
3
0
May 16, 2017
Technically using table 76, new production, and table 84, end of month inventory, you can use the USAAAF statistical digest to give an idea of monthly losses (loss = inventory last month + new production – inventory this month) but as a monthly guide only at best, if all you want is a war total (end November 1941 to end August 1945) then it would be a good initial all cause loss figure, remembering as 1945 went on aircraft began to be sold off as well as scrapped as excess to requirements. Also using the various loss tables to see if the figures reconcile.

As expected different reports have different numbers.

For operations the Eighth Air Force reports B-17 226,332 total sorties, 203,358 credit, 185,704 effective, 1,018 Category E, 3,210 MIA = 4,228 losses. B-24 102,258 total sorties, 90,583 credit, 78,914 effective, 544 Category E, 1,562 MIA = 1,630 losses. Totals 328,590 sorties, 293,841 credit, 264,618 effective, 1,562 Category E, 4,296 MIA = 5,858 losses. The USAAF Statistical digest has 5,548 heavy bomber losses of which 2,452 to enemy aircraft, 2,439 to flak and 657 to other causes from 332,904 airborne and 274,921 effective sorties.

Operations, light and medium bomber losses, 9th Air Force report to left of x, USAAF Statistical Digest to right.

MonthLossesLossesLossesxTotalEnemyAnti Air-Other
MonthMIACAT ETotalxTotalAircraftCraftOther
Nov-43​
6​
0​
6​
x
11​
3​
7​
1​
Dec-43​
2​
5​
7​
x
6​
1​
5​
Jan-44​
3​
3​
6​
x
5​
1​
2​
2​
Feb-44​
14​
6​
20​
x
19​
4​
14​
1​
Mar-44​
10​
8​
18​
x
15​
2​
9​
4​
Apr-44​
30​
12​
42​
x
32​
1​
25​
6​
May-44​
43​
27​
70​
x
45​
10​
28​
7​
Jun-44​
46​
20​
66​
x
44​
25​
12​
7​
Jul-44​
32​
23​
55​
x
34​
5​
23​
6​
Aug-44​
39​
38​
77​
x
91​
2​
75​
14​
Sep-44​
13​
12​
25​
x
27​
0​
25​
2​
Oct-44​
16​
15​
31​
x
26​
0​
24​
2​
Nov-44​
17​
13​
30​
x
31​
1​
18​
12​
Dec-44​
55​
44​
99​
x
118​
42​
48​
28​
Jan-45​
18​
36​
54​
x
58​
0​
28​
30​
Feb-45​
46​
40​
86​
x
85​
4​
68​
13​
Mar-45​
35​
45​
80​
x
89​
5​
52​
32​
Apr-45​
20​
13​
33​
x
46​
11​
18​
17​
May-45​
x
1943​
8​
5​
13​
x
17​
4​
12​
1​
1944​
318​
221​
539​
x
487​
93​
303​
91​
1945​
119​
134​
253​
x
278​
20​
166​
92​
Grand
445​
360​
805​
x
782​
117​
481​
184​

9th Air Force report. Battle Losses

A/C TypeFlakFlakFlakE/AcE/AcE/AcOtherOtherOtherTotalsTotalsTotals
CategoryLostCAT ETotalLostCAT ETotalLostCAT ETotalLostCAT ETotal
A-20
56​
36​
92​
0​
34​
43​
77​
90​
79​
169​
A-26
20​
10​
30​
2​
2​
4​
13​
16​
29​
35​
28​
63​
B-26
204​
116​
320​
47​
13​
60​
69​
124​
193​
320​
253​
573​
The 9th Air Force report does have monthly figures by type, for example, P-47
MonthTotalCreditEffectiveLossesLossesLosses
MonthSortiesSortiesSortiesMIACAT ETotal
Feb-44​
1163​
1098​
1096​
5​
5​
Mar-44​
3957​
3694​
3694​
6​
1​
7​
Apr-44​
5605​
5465​
5307​
14​
5​
19​
May-44​
15653​
15079​
14618​
44​
8​
52​
Jun-44​
22498​
21994​
21215​
186​
24​
210​
Jul-44​
17957​
17594​
16636​
134​
20​
154​
Aug-44​
19048​
18688​
18140​
149​
12​
161​
Sep-44​
14331​
13771​
12997​
65​
25​
90​
Oct-44​
13269​
12823​
12058​
69​
23​
92​
Nov-44​
9631​
9431​
9133​
74​
18​
92​
Dec-44​
12740​
12507​
12273​
128​
26​
154​
Jan-45​
8739​
8633​
8438​
77​
13​
90​
Feb-45​
13593​
13518​
13286​
68​
17​
85​
Mar-45​
25069​
24969​
24307​
112​
38​
150​
Apr-45​
16926​
16641​
16052​
73​
17​
90​
May-45​
1367​
1286​
1200​
4​
2​
6​
1944​
135852​
132144​
127167​
874​
162​
1036​
1945​
65694​
65047​
63283​
334​
87​
421​
Grand
201546​
197191​
190450​
1208​
249​
1457​

USN definition of ACTION SORTIES Number of planes taking off on a mission which eventuated in an attack on an enemy target or in aerial combat, or both. This basis of tabulation was the number of planes of one squadron taking off on the mission. If any of these planes had action, the entire squadron's planes on the mission were counted as action sorties, including abortive planes, planes which reached the target but did not attack, and planes which escorted or patrolled but did not engage in combat. Thus if 16 VP took off as escort, 2 returned early, 2 engaged in combat, and 4 strafed, all 16 were counted as action sorties. Likewise if 8 planes took off for CAP, and only 2 engaged in combat, all 8 were action sorties. On the other hand, if 8 VF took off for escort, and none engaged in any sort of attack or combat, then none were counted as action sorties, even though they reached the target, and even though escorted bombers attacked the target. Likewise, CAP planes missions, none of whose planes engaged in combat were not counted as action sorties.

In table 16 of NAVAL AVIATION COMBAT STATISTICS—WORLD WAR II in 1944 and 1945 the Pacific Theatre land based Marine F4U and FG units that were considered to be in action flew a total of 201,352 sorties, lost 131 aircraft on 50,118 action sorties, a rate of 0.26138 per 100 sorties, they also lost 372 aircraft on 151,234 other flights at a rate of 0.24598 per 100 sorties. (the table loss rates are 0.26 and 0.25) the land based navy squadrons added another 2,123 sorties, 742 of which were action. There were another 349 F4U action sorties not in the above as the branch of service could not be identified.

Using table 1 the F4U and FG flew 64,501 action sorties.

For the same conditions as above the PBJ units flew 20,770 sorties, of which 8,390 were action, losing 12 on action sorties, 23 on other sorties, 2 on the ground, which totals 37 but the "total including enemy action" in the table is 55, a difference of 18.

While the USAAF definitions were

Sortie: A sortie is an aircraft airborne on a mission against the enemy (synonymous with terms 'aircraft dispatched", "aircraft airborne", and "aircraft taking off", previously used.

Aircraft Credit Sortie: An aircraft credit sortie is deemed to have taken place when an airplane, ordered on an operational mission and in the performance of that mission, has entered an area where enemy anti-aircraft fire may be effective, or where usual enemy fighter patrols occur, or when the airplane is in any way subjected to entry attack. (Definition previously used for sortie to the ETO)

Non-Effective Sortie: A non-effective sortie is a sortie which for any reason fails to carry out the purpose of the mission. (Synonymous with the term "abortive".)
Thank you!
 

GregP

Captain
8,548
4,836
Jul 28, 2003
Chino, California, U.S.A.
Technically using table 76, new production, and table 84, end of month inventory, you can use the USAAAF statistical digest to give an idea of monthly losses (loss = inventory last month + new production – inventory this month) but as a monthly guide only at best, if all you want is a war total (end November 1941 to end August 1945) then it would be a good initial all cause loss figure, remembering as 1945 went on aircraft began to be sold off as well as scrapped as excess to requirements. Also using the various loss tables to see if the figures reconcile.

As expected different reports have different numbers.

For operations the Eighth Air Force reports B-17 226,332 total sorties, 203,358 credit, 185,704 effective, 1,018 Category E, 3,210 MIA = 4,228 losses. B-24 102,258 total sorties, 90,583 credit, 78,914 effective, 544 Category E, 1,562 MIA = 1,630 losses. Totals 328,590 sorties, 293,841 credit, 264,618 effective, 1,562 Category E, 4,296 MIA = 5,858 losses. The USAAF Statistical digest has 5,548 heavy bomber losses of which 2,452 to enemy aircraft, 2,439 to flak and 657 to other causes from 332,904 airborne and 274,921 effective sorties.

Operations, light and medium bomber losses, 9th Air Force report to left of x, USAAF Statistical Digest to right.

MonthLossesLossesLossesxTotalEnemyAnti Air-Other
MonthMIACAT ETotalxTotalAircraftCraftOther
Nov-43​
6​
0​
6​
x
11​
3​
7​
1​
Dec-43​
2​
5​
7​
x
6​
1​
5​
Jan-44​
3​
3​
6​
x
5​
1​
2​
2​
Feb-44​
14​
6​
20​
x
19​
4​
14​
1​
Mar-44​
10​
8​
18​
x
15​
2​
9​
4​
Apr-44​
30​
12​
42​
x
32​
1​
25​
6​
May-44​
43​
27​
70​
x
45​
10​
28​
7​
Jun-44​
46​
20​
66​
x
44​
25​
12​
7​
Jul-44​
32​
23​
55​
x
34​
5​
23​
6​
Aug-44​
39​
38​
77​
x
91​
2​
75​
14​
Sep-44​
13​
12​
25​
x
27​
0​
25​
2​
Oct-44​
16​
15​
31​
x
26​
0​
24​
2​
Nov-44​
17​
13​
30​
x
31​
1​
18​
12​
Dec-44​
55​
44​
99​
x
118​
42​
48​
28​
Jan-45​
18​
36​
54​
x
58​
0​
28​
30​
Feb-45​
46​
40​
86​
x
85​
4​
68​
13​
Mar-45​
35​
45​
80​
x
89​
5​
52​
32​
Apr-45​
20​
13​
33​
x
46​
11​
18​
17​
May-45​
x
1943​
8​
5​
13​
x
17​
4​
12​
1​
1944​
318​
221​
539​
x
487​
93​
303​
91​
1945​
119​
134​
253​
x
278​
20​
166​
92​
Grand
445​
360​
805​
x
782​
117​
481​
184​

9th Air Force report. Battle Losses

A/C TypeFlakFlakFlakE/AcE/AcE/AcOtherOtherOtherTotalsTotalsTotals
CategoryLostCAT ETotalLostCAT ETotalLostCAT ETotalLostCAT ETotal
A-20
56​
36​
92​
0​
34​
43​
77​
90​
79​
169​
A-26
20​
10​
30​
2​
2​
4​
13​
16​
29​
35​
28​
63​
B-26
204​
116​
320​
47​
13​
60​
69​
124​
193​
320​
253​
573​
The 9th Air Force report does have monthly figures by type, for example, P-47
MonthTotalCreditEffectiveLossesLossesLosses
MonthSortiesSortiesSortiesMIACAT ETotal
Feb-44​
1163​
1098​
1096​
5​
5​
Mar-44​
3957​
3694​
3694​
6​
1​
7​
Apr-44​
5605​
5465​
5307​
14​
5​
19​
May-44​
15653​
15079​
14618​
44​
8​
52​
Jun-44​
22498​
21994​
21215​
186​
24​
210​
Jul-44​
17957​
17594​
16636​
134​
20​
154​
Aug-44​
19048​
18688​
18140​
149​
12​
161​
Sep-44​
14331​
13771​
12997​
65​
25​
90​
Oct-44​
13269​
12823​
12058​
69​
23​
92​
Nov-44​
9631​
9431​
9133​
74​
18​
92​
Dec-44​
12740​
12507​
12273​
128​
26​
154​
Jan-45​
8739​
8633​
8438​
77​
13​
90​
Feb-45​
13593​
13518​
13286​
68​
17​
85​
Mar-45​
25069​
24969​
24307​
112​
38​
150​
Apr-45​
16926​
16641​
16052​
73​
17​
90​
May-45​
1367​
1286​
1200​
4​
2​
6​
1944​
135852​
132144​
127167​
874​
162​
1036​
1945​
65694​
65047​
63283​
334​
87​
421​
Grand
201546​
197191​
190450​
1208​
249​
1457​

USN definition of ACTION SORTIES Number of planes taking off on a mission which eventuated in an attack on an enemy target or in aerial combat, or both. This basis of tabulation was the number of planes of one squadron taking off on the mission. If any of these planes had action, the entire squadron's planes on the mission were counted as action sorties, including abortive planes, planes which reached the target but did not attack, and planes which escorted or patrolled but did not engage in combat. Thus if 16 VP took off as escort, 2 returned early, 2 engaged in combat, and 4 strafed, all 16 were counted as action sorties. Likewise if 8 planes took off for CAP, and only 2 engaged in combat, all 8 were action sorties. On the other hand, if 8 VF took off for escort, and none engaged in any sort of attack or combat, then none were counted as action sorties, even though they reached the target, and even though escorted bombers attacked the target. Likewise, CAP planes missions, none of whose planes engaged in combat were not counted as action sorties.

In table 16 of NAVAL AVIATION COMBAT STATISTICS—WORLD WAR II in 1944 and 1945 the Pacific Theatre land based Marine F4U and FG units that were considered to be in action flew a total of 201,352 sorties, lost 131 aircraft on 50,118 action sorties, a rate of 0.26138 per 100 sorties, they also lost 372 aircraft on 151,234 other flights at a rate of 0.24598 per 100 sorties. (the table loss rates are 0.26 and 0.25) the land based navy squadrons added another 2,123 sorties, 742 of which were action. There were another 349 F4U action sorties not in the above as the branch of service could not be identified.

Using table 1 the F4U and FG flew 64,501 action sorties.

For the same conditions as above the PBJ units flew 20,770 sorties, of which 8,390 were action, losing 12 on action sorties, 23 on other sorties, 2 on the ground, which totals 37 but the "total including enemy action" in the table is 55, a difference of 18.

While the USAAF definitions were

Sortie: A sortie is an aircraft airborne on a mission against the enemy (synonymous with terms 'aircraft dispatched", "aircraft airborne", and "aircraft taking off", previously used.

Aircraft Credit Sortie: An aircraft credit sortie is deemed to have taken place when an airplane, ordered on an operational mission and in the performance of that mission, has entered an area where enemy anti-aircraft fire may be effective, or where usual enemy fighter patrols occur, or when the airplane is in any way subjected to entry attack. (Definition previously used for sortie to the ETO)

Non-Effective Sortie: A non-effective sortie is a sortie which for any reason fails to carry out the purpose of the mission. (Synonymous with the term "abortive".)

Actually, you can't Geoffrey, unless you have all monthly accidents as well.

We lost some 43,000 planes overseas including about 23,000 in combat and we lost about 14,000 in the continental U.S.A. They aren't broken out by type AFAIK, just cited as accidents.
 

GregP

Captain
8,548
4,836
Jul 28, 2003
Chino, California, U.S.A.
Hi Greg - the "4950" air victory credits for P-51 cited by Wagner on pg 133 was not sourced by footnote. The 'number' sourced by USAF 85 in aggragate and by Olynyk in detail was north of 5900 (I'll have to dig for last pass by Olynk). Recall that you helped cross check my USAAF and Study 85 numbers of 4207 (+) for just the ETO alone, MTO was north of 1100 and CBI was north of 600. Additionally the Commonealth added 330+ (Olynyk and Shores working on final when Frank passed this spring).

So 'final' for AAF was 5900+ and RAF/RAAF, etc was 330+

Ground scores cited above were for 8th AF, but as you know may theatres were 'sloppy' in accunting for them a the respective commands did not count them except in operational post mission intelligence summaries - many of which were lost to history. IIRC the USN/USMC was very sloppy regarding ground destruction claims -

Hi Bill, I put that table together a long time ago (best I had at the time), and have not attempted it again since. I think your file was an 8th and 9th Air Force list, so it SHOULD be ETO only, at least until VE Day. I will update it soon!

I have been waiting for your book on the Med and I hope you are working on the CBI and the Pacific, too! :)
 
Last edited:

Geoffrey Sinclair

Senior Airman
417
753
Sep 30, 2021
Actually, you can't Geoffrey, unless you have all monthly accidents as well.

We lost some 43,000 planes overseas including about 23,000 in combat and we lost about 14,000 in the continental U.S.A. They aren't broken out by type AFAIK, just cited as accidents.
Actually I can, given the request was for losses, not combat losses, so the maths holds. Though I need to clarify you need to deduct from new production any aircraft allocated to other air forces.
 

GregP

Captain
8,548
4,836
Jul 28, 2003
Chino, California, U.S.A.
Actually, accidents are not operational losses. Accidents are accidents. Technically, they are losses, just not operational losses.

Losses happen in a combat theater. Accidents happen in non-combat areas.

But, you the difference is semantics. I want combat, operational, and repositioning losses and not "accidents" when I look at losses. I wouldn't count training as losses, but would count losses to enemy A/C, enemy flak, operational losses, losses on the ground to strafing, losses on a ship at sea thath sinks, and repositioning losses. Accidents are things like, taxiing into a truck, stalled on takeoff or landing on a training flight, etc. Most training accidents were in the U.S.A., but not all. There was considerable training in the UK and other theaters, especially for newly-transferred pilot, called theater familiarization flights.

So, I don't count the 57,000 accidents as losses when calculating for combat statistics.
 

drgondog

Captain
8,700
4,338
Jun 28, 2006
Scurry, Texas
Hi Bill, I put that table together a long time ago (best I had at the time), and have not attempted it again since. I think your file was an 8th and 9th Air Force list, so it SHOULD be ETO only, at least until VE Day. I will update it soon!

I have been waiting for your book on the Med and I hope you are working on the CBI and the Pacific, too! :)
Greg - my next project will focus on P-51D/F/G/J and H. It may or May not touch on combat history, but I will expand on ETO/MTO/CBI from the 'bastard Stepchild' for entire war - not just up to D-Day. Appendices only.
 

Geoffrey Sinclair

Senior Airman
417
753
Sep 30, 2021
Actually, accidents are not operational losses. Accidents are accidents. Technically, they are losses, just not operational losses.
Actually the air force tends to call accidents on operations operational losses, see the other column for example in the Statistical Digest and the various more detailed reports.
Losses happen in a combat theater. Accidents happen in non-combat areas.
Can you quote an air force document that confirms the above definition? Plenty of USAAF accidents in Britain when it was a combat zone, including Britain's worst air accident for the war, a B-24 caught in wind sheer that came down on a primary school during school hours.
But, you the difference is semantics.
Thanks for telling me what you incorrectly think I think. Amusing given you are trying to define accident and loss to your ideas.
I want combat, operational, and repositioning losses and not "accidents" when I look at losses.
You did not ask the original question.
I wouldn't count training as losses, but would count losses to enemy A/C, enemy flak, operational losses, losses on the ground to strafing, losses on a ship at sea thath sinks, and repositioning losses. Accidents are things like, taxiing into a truck, stalled on takeoff or landing on a training flight, etc.
So if an aircraft stalled on take off on operations or a repositioning flight it is an accident, not a loss? Going down with ship that sinks due to say a collision or faulty navigation "marine casualty" as well as sunk by the enemy are losses, not accidents? I am unsure of what qualified the aircraft to be counted in the salvage total but the 9th Air Force aircraft losses include 1,525 non operational salvage, versus 2,859 missing and 761 category E on operations, along with 141 to second line, 4,936 transferred and 95 for other reasons.
There was considerable training in the UK and other theaters, especially for newly-transferred pilot, called theater familiarization flights.
Actually there was considerable training across the board beyond learning the local landscape, the 9th Air Force flew 1,070,904 hours on operations, plus another 820,117 hours on non operations, roughly 5 hours ops, 4 hours non ops, a variation on more sweat in training less blood on operations. Overall accident rate was 1.27 per 1,000 flying hours. March 1944 to May 1945 rates by type of aircraft.
TypeOverallOverallOpsOpsNon OpsNon Ops
TypeNo.RateNo.RateNo.Rate
A-20
131​
1.26​
70​
1.03​
61​
1.68​
A-26
76​
1.00​
38​
1.07​
38​
0.93​
B-26
333​
0.94​
218​
0.90​
115​
1.03​
P-38
219​
2.17​
123​
1.49​
96​
5.17​
P-47
912​
1.49​
554​
1.17​
358​
2.59​
P-51
150​
1.76​
67​
0.99​
83​
4.82​
P-61
34​
2.59​
20​
3.09​
14​
2.10​
F-3
10​
2.27​
5​
3.91​
5​
1.60​
F-5
38​
1.77​
16​
1.18​
22​
2.80​
F-6
85​
1.46​
59​
1.32​
26​
1.93​
L-4
59​
6.56​
0​
0.00​
59​
6.56​
L-5
103​
1.15​
0​
0.00​
103​
1.15​
C-47/53
69​
0.25​
6​
0.46​
63​
0.24​
Misc.
128​
2.03​
0​
0.00​
128​
2.03​
Total
2347​
1.27​
1176​
1.12​
1171​
1.48​
So, I don't count the 57,000 accidents as losses when calculating for combat statistics.
Actually no one counts training accidents in combat statistics, even less for losses as most accidents left the aircraft repairable. The USAAF Statistical Digest notes 54,652 accidents in the US during Fiscal Years 1941 to 1945 resulting in 13,992 aircraft wrecked and 14,899 people killed.

Unless some grand total is required the air force documents I have seen separate out losses on operations from non operations, and then separate the causes of losses (and damage) on operations between enemy action and not enemy action. If the aircraft is destroyed it is a loss, if the enemy was not involved the event ends up under the accident or operational losses/damage category. Aircraft that go down with their transport tend get put into lost in transit, the USAAF Statistical Digest table 108 records 909 losses en route 1941 to 1945, including on ferry flights.
 

Wild_Bill_Kelso

Staff Sergeant
1,141
490
Mar 18, 2022
Here's a list I put together some years back. It's still the best I have found, and comes from two sources noted at the top of the list. Doesn't have everything you asked about, but I could add bombers when I get time. Cheers.

View attachment 683359

Nice effort, and nicer idea, but I'm not sure i buy the data. Your total victories ('kills') are way off
 

GregP

Captain
8,548
4,836
Jul 28, 2003
Chino, California, U.S.A.
The data come from well-regarded references. Your beliefs are your own. I don't personally know if they are right or not, but they are better than anything else I have at this time.

I DO have some data from Drgondog about 8th and 9th AF in the ETO, but it doesn't cover the entire war, just the ETO. It also gives me the aircraft flown by the victor, but not the aircraft flown by the victim, and doesn't break out air-to-air and ground victories.
 

drgondog

Captain
8,700
4,338
Jun 28, 2006
Scurry, Texas
The data come from well-regarded references. Your beliefs are your own. I don't personally know if they are right or not, but they are better than anything else I have at this time.

I DO have some data from Drgondog about 8th and 9th AF in the ETO, but it doesn't cover the entire war, just the ETO. It also gives me the aircraft flown by the victor, but not the aircraft flown by the victim, and doesn't break out air-to-air and ground victories.
Stictly air to air, 8th AF Victory Credits Board, 9th AF Victory Credits, - all massaged for duplicates and mis spellings into USAF Study 85.

The reason I didn't do ETO Ground scores is that only the 8th AF was meticulous about ground scores.
 

GregP

Captain
8,548
4,836
Jul 28, 2003
Chino, California, U.S.A.
Hi Bill!

Wasn't sure whether these victories were total or air-to-air. Thanks for the info.

Since you generated the data and it is not my work, I won't post it. If you want it posted, you post it.

Cheers, and put me down for a copy of all your new work.
 

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