VT-8 TBF at Midway

GrauGeist · Mar 19, 2021

XBe02Drvr said:
when we asked Mr Good how they worked, he shrugged and said: "Dunno, F_ _kin' Magic, I guess".

I wish I had a buck for every time I heard the "it's f**king magic" phrase!

A more recent example:
Had a patrol car in for two-way repair. The patrolman could RX dispatch just fine, but the TX was terrible. Not only was he 10-1 to dispatch, but he would bleed all over other units nearby and even interfere with commercial tuners with his TX.
Took a while to find the issue, but it was in the car's trunk where the Motorola Syntor transceiver (150 watt output @ 150mhz) was mounted. Aparently, some gear had been tossed back there, causing the coax to become severed by about a foot.
When I showed the wicked air gap to the techs, they just shook their heads and when one of my shop helpers asked how it was even working, the lead tech (retired Navy Chief) stated "because that right there is the very image of f**cking magic"...

MIflyer · Mar 19, 2021

The attached pictures are of an ARN-123. The set dates from the 1970's but the shock mount is identical to that used by the radios of WWII. Of course, larger sets, such as the SCR-522, needed beefier shock mounts, but of the same design.

XBe02Drvr · Mar 19, 2021

Thumpalumpacus said:
I can only imagine the shock-mounts required to make radios work on combat aircraft or BBs hammering away at a target, much less taking incoming.

The AN/APQ72 radar in the F4B had lots of "hardened" tubes in it and very few transistors. The tubes were laid flat on the circuit boards and retained by mounting clips that doubled as heatsinks, but with all the catshots, traps, and Gs, reliability was not optimum, and board swapping was a constant activity.

Thumpalumpacus · Mar 19, 2021

XBe02Drvr said:
The AN/APQ72 radar in the F4B had lots of "hardened" tubes in it and very few transistors. The tubes were laid flat on the circuit boards and retained by mounting clips that doubled as heatsinks, but with all the catshots, traps, and Gs, reliability was not optimum, and board swapping was a constant activity.

I don't think transistors had been invented at that time. I could well be wrong on that score, but I thought they only came along in the 50s.

GrauGeist · Mar 20, 2021

Transistors were under development during WWII, but it wasn't until 1947 that they had a stable working example.

And his reference to an F4B is (I'm pretty sure) the F4 Phantom and not the Navy's Boeing F4 of the early 1930's.

XBe02Drvr · Mar 20, 2021

Thumpalumpacus said:
I don't think transistors had been invented at that time. I could well be wrong on that score, but I thought they only came along in the 50s.

Transistors did come along in the 50s and the B model F4 was equipping fleet squadrons from about 1960 onwards. My trainer used a certain number of "airworthy" components and circuit boards straight out of the aircraft, though once they'd been in a trainer, they had to be engraved: "NOT FOR USE IN AIRCRAFT". When I first started on the trainer these circuit boards were mostly tubes with a few transistors here and there. As time went by, updated boards with more solid state components gradually upgraded the aircraft, and after suitable delay, the trainer.

GrauGeist · Mar 20, 2021

It wasn't until about 1963 (or so) that American automobiles had transistors in their radios - my '62 Chevy Nova has a tube-type receiver (and a 12V generator), the following year, the Novas came with "Solid State!" radios (and a Delcotron alternator).

XBe02Drvr · Mar 20, 2021

GrauGeist said:
It wasn't until about 1963 (or so) that American automobiles had transistors in their radios

As usual, DOD gets first dibs.

MIflyer · Mar 20, 2021

DoD gets first dibs because DoD makes the first dibs. The first Integrated Circuits were in USAF Minuteman guidance systems.

I have an ARC-27, a huge 80 pound UHF 220-400 MHZ transceiver developed late in WWII. It's a thing of complex beauty inside, with numerous tubes, and a motor running a chain driven contraption and is operated remotely from a control box. . A friend of mine trained on that set in the late 50's and was told the original designer had gone insane. By 1970 the ARC-116 was in use in Army helicopters and had the same frequency coverage in a box about the same size and weight as the ARC-27 control box; on the other hand it was not all that reliable and was much more picky about what antenna it used. You could probably hook an ARC-27 up to barbed wire fence and it would not care, but I can tell you from personal experience that unless an ARC-114 has EXACTLY the right antenna, it will not put out a peep.

Electron tubes are larger and more fragile than solid state components but they are much more robust electronically. Impedence mismatches, lightning strikes, and EMP that might fry a transistor a tube would hardly notice.

A fascinating and very well written book is TW-11-662/TO 16-1-255, "Basic Theory and Applications of Electron Tubes" from Feb 1952. I wish the other aspects of modern technology were explained as clearly, somewhere.

XBe02Drvr · Mar 20, 2021

MIflyer said:
A fascinating and very well written book is TW-11-662/TO 16-1-255, "Basic Theory and Applications of Electron Tubes" from Feb 1952. I wish the other aspects of modern technology were explained as clearly, somewhere.

I still have a few texts, workbooks, and programmed instruction booklets from my Avionics "A" and Training Device "A" schools circa 1970, and they are the clearest, simplest, and most retentive training publications I've ever seen. I saw high school dropouts with eighth grade educations (selected by the testing system for their aptitude, not their knowledge) turned into competent electronics technicians in 40 weeks. Those of us who had more education were tasked with tutoring those kids who had educational deficits. I'm mathematically deficient myself, but I and my fast track classmates wound up teaching these guys algebra and trigonometry. Everything was happening at an accelerated pace, and in part time night school we covered three years of remedial high school math in three months. And still had time for flying lessons and the occaisonal evening at the EM Club.

MIflyer · Apr 3, 2021

Did not someone want color info for the surviving VT-8 TBF at Midway? I finally found this.

Barrett · Apr 20, 2023

MIflyer said:
Did not someone want color info for the surviving VT-8 TBF at Midway? I finally found this.

View attachment 618418 View attachment 618418

The colors are wrong. In 1942 the upper surfaces were medium gray, lower surfaces light gray (I used to have the federal numbers from our SBD restoration but lost them.). The biggest complaint among naval purists in the current warbird world is all the Avengers, Corsairs and Hellcats etc. painted in Swimming Pool Blue or Aquamarine. Or something. Turns out that Mrs. Warbird Owner often selects the colors.

Barrett · Apr 20, 2023

pararaftanr2 said:
Yes, that is the "sole surviving" TBF from VT-8's Midway contingent. The plane's pilot was Ensign Albert K. Earnest. Crew were ARM3c Harrier H. Ferrier and S1c Jay D. Manning. Manning was killed in his turret, fighting off Zero fighters on their way back to Midway. The plane was heavily damaged and the landing gear did not fully deploy, as seen in the first photo below. Your photo, and the one below with the gear fully extended, were taken June 24, 1942, as the plane was being prepared for shipment back to the US.View attachment 616557 View attachment 616558 View attachment 616559

Excellent reply among all the questions.
Here's the deal:
For my Osprey TBF Avenger Units book (originally from Ian Allan hardcover 1979) I quoted the VT-8 TBF pilot, Bert Earnest whom I knew from Tailhook and Golden Eagles. At the Midway 50th anniversary event in DC he appeared with The Sole Survivor (who wasn't) who repeated the claim before Bert, his radioman, and 200 Midway historians.

Afterward, Bert spotted me in an aisle seat and said "C'mere, I'd like you to meet my radioman."

Feisty little guy stuck out his hand and said "Hi, I'm Harry Ferrier, THE THIRD SOLE SURVIVOR OF TORPEDO EIGHT!" I was fortunate to work with Harry on another project a few years later.

Gay sort of became a professional survivor, and told various iterations of his Midway story. Early on, I ran a simple time-distance calculation and realized that from his wave top position he could not have seen the Japanese carriers when the SBDs rolled in about a half hour later. For the best assessment of the subject, look up Jon Parshal's Nihon Kaigun page, approximately "What Did George Gay See?"

MIflyer · Apr 20, 2023

Barrett said:
ll the Avengers, Corsairs and Hellcats etc. painted in Swimming Pool Blue or Aquamarine

There was a P-40 flown by a female pilot several years back that was painted pink, on the basis that was WWII "desert" camo.

And of course misnamed color schemes led to tragedies such as below. Imagine the effort required to restore a rare airplane only to think that 'Sand and Spinach" was a real description.

BiffF15 · Apr 20, 2023

Barrett said:
Excellent reply among all the questions.
Here's the deal:
For my Osprey TBF Avenger Units book (originally from Ian Allan hardcover 1979) I quoted the VT-8 TBF pilot, Bert Earnest whom I knew from Tailhook and Golden Eagles. At the Midway 50th anniversary event in DC he appeared with The Sole Survivor (who wasn't) who repeated the claim before Bert, his radioman, and 200 Midway historians.

Afterward, Bert spotted me in an aisle seat and said "C'mere, I'd like you to meet my radioman."

Feisty little guy stuck out his hand and said "Hi, I'm Harry Ferrier, THE THIRD SOLE SURVIVOR OF TORPEDO EIGHT!" I was fortunate to work with Harry on another project a few years later.

Gay sort of became a professional survivor, and told various iterations of his Midway story. Early on, I ran a simple time-distance calculation and realized that from his wave top position he could not have seen the Japanese carriers when the SBDs rolled in about a half hour later. For the best assessment of the subject, look up Jon Parshal's Nihon Kaigun page, approximately "What Did George Gay See?"

I remember seeing Gay at different air shows as a kid. I think he was pedaling a book.

PAT303 · Apr 21, 2023

davparlr said:
The TBFs, along with four torpedo equipped B-26s were sent from Midway island. It must be pointed out here that, while the SBDs famous attack destroyed the Japanese carriers, there several attacks prior against the Japanese that, while not tactically successful, contributed greatly to the over all mission success. These various attacks came in sequence and kept the Japanese off balance, forcing maneuvering away from the wind direction slowing aircraft recovery and launching, preventing aircraft placement on the decks and affecting weapons and fueling activities. The B-26s were particularly disconcerting with one flying down the flight deck of the Akagi straffing anyone on deck, and another barely missing crashing into the Akagi's bridge, which would have killed Nagumo. The bravery of the American airmen during these attacks impressed the Japanese. While not successful in their assigned mission, their overall effect contributed significantly to the victory at Midway.

They were brave to the very last man, that is a fact.

MIflyer · Apr 21, 2023

The U.S., probably not intentionally, virtually invented for that battle the tactic we now call "swarming." B-17's, B-26's, Vindicators, SBD's, TBF's, PBY's, all from Midway Island, kept the IJN looking at the sky with fear, and did not let them focus on the US aircraft carriers. The delay imposed by the need to rearm the IJN aircraft from ground attack to ship attack proved to be key, and VT-8 showed up at exactly the right time to screw that up.

Peter Gunn · Apr 21, 2023

MIflyer said:
There was a P-40 flown by a female pilot several years back that was painted pink, on the basis that was WWII "desert" camo.

And of course misnamed color schemes led to tragedies such as below. Imagine the effort required to restore a rare airplane only to think that 'Sand and Spinach" was a real description.

View attachment 716697

Sorry, I missed your point, there was a redhead in my eye.

Thumpalumpacus · Apr 21, 2023

Barrett said:
For the best assessment of the subject, look up Jon Parshal's Nihon Kaigun page, approximately "What Did George Gay See?"

I looked but couldn't find.

Peter Gunn · Apr 21, 2023

Thumpalumpacus said:
I looked but couldn't find.

Same here.

VT-8 TBF at Midway

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

1st Lieutenant

2nd Lieutenant

Major

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

2nd Lieutenant

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

2nd Lieutenant

1st Lieutenant

2nd Lieutenant

1st Lieutenant

Senior Airman

Senior Airman

1st Lieutenant

Tech Sergeant

Tech Sergeant

1st Lieutenant

Master Sergeant

Major

Master Sergeant

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