War over the Wine Dark sea

[Schweik]

For a while now I've been fascinated by the war taking place far out over the ocean, away from the main carrier battles and land wars, distinct from the strategic bombing campaigns or major invasions, but over the approaches to islands like Malta or Iceland, over the Bay of Biscay, throughout the Mediterranean, in the Aleutians and the more remote parts of the North Atlantic, Indian Ocean and South Pacific.

These battles are interesting to me because they took place at the extremes of human capabilities in that time, and you see some of the most interesting aircraft types involved, fighting in very remote places and the limits of range and endurance, for very high stakes. The locations are often exotic, lonely places, sometimes of great beauty. And the wide expanses of the sea are often the only grave marker for those who fell.

This was the realm of the seaplane scouts like the Ar 196, the E-13 and the OS2U; the seaplane bombers like the He 115, BV 138, and the CANT Z.506; the scout fighters like the F1M, the deadly A6M2-N, the powerful N1K, and the exotic Northrop N-3PB, and at the very end of the war, the Curtiss SC Seahawk; the long range maritime patrol bombers like the FW 200 and the PB4Y-2; the long range torpedo carriers like the SM-79, the Beaufort and the Beaufighter and Ju 88, the great "fighting" flying boats like PBY, PB2Y, majestic Short Sunderland, and the mighty BV 238 and gigantic BV 222.

So I'd like to make it a poll, best in each of the above listed categories:

• best (warship launched) seaplane scout,
• best seaplane bomber,
• best seaplane / scout fighter
• best long range maritime patrol bomber
• best long range torpedo carrier
• best "fighting" flying boat

The poll software is kind of simple but I limited it to 6 options, so try to pick one of each of the above if you do take the poll.

In your choices, consider the effectiveness of the aircraft (how dangerous was it to the enemy) the reliability of it (how safe was it for it's own crew) how good for it's primary mission (like sinking subs or protecting / attacking convoys) and secondary mission (like destroying other maritime aircraft) and how many actually saw action (some of the best designs really didn't)

 

[fubar57]

Great poll. Gonna take a lot of pondering

 

[Schweik]

There is a lot to think about, some of the aircraft really cross categories too. The Ar-196 for example is perhaps more of a seaplane fighter. But the nature of these planes is that many ended up having to take on roles they weren't designed for. Sometimes the PB4Y or Sunderland had to be fighters.

Also, some of the more effective seaplanes and float planes, in terms of combat, had quite short range. The E-13 is lightly protected, with (usually) no forward firing guns, but it has a range of over 1,200 miles. As a scout that is very useful. Similarly the He 115 wasn't as formidable in terms of guns as the BV 138 but it had almost double the range... and it did still have guns and a bomb carrying capability. The range gives the lightly armed aircraft the capability to fight where the enemy is unprepared (or a lot less prepared) which lets a meek aircraft become a predator sometimes.

So there are a lot of factors to balance.

 

[Schweik]

Made a notable omission on flying boat,s though there is no room in the poll any more, you can post a "write in" vote in for the Martin PBM Mariner as a flying boat, and the Vickers Wellington as a Maritime Patrol bomber / long range torpedo bomber if you want.

Keep in mind you can vote up to 6 times in the poll, once for each category.

 

[mikewint]

JAPANESE

The Japanese produced the best flying boat of the war: excellent performance, long range and good defensive and offensive armament.
The Kawanishi H8K Type 2, a high performance, four-engined bomber, reconnaissance and transport aircraft code named "Emily" by the Allies. Type 2 flying boats even raided Honolulu, Hawaii in March 1942. Unfortunately they were often used as scouts for Japanese carrier striking forces. However in that role they suffered greatly at the hands of radar directed carrier-borne fighters as they approached U.S. task forces.
The H8K-2 incorporated armor protection for the crew and protected fuel tanks in the wings and fuselage. Defensive armament included single 20mm cannon in the nose turret, dorsal turret, tail turret and (port and starboard) beam blisters. These were augmented by five .303 machine guns firing from hull hatches. Offensive weapons included two torpedoes or 2205 pounds of bombs and depth charges. Performance was excellent, the best of any of the big WW II flying boats. Top speed was almost 300 mph at around 20,000' and the service ceiling was over 28,000'. After the Japanese developed radar, surface search sets were fitted to H8K patrol bombers.
There was a transport version of the H8K which were produced by modifying the existing aircraft. Most of the defensive armament, including the side blisters and dorsal turret, were removed as were the fuselage fuel tanks to increase its cargo volume. The result of these modifications was that the H8K-2L could transport up to 62 combat troops.

As an island nation with few natural resources almost totally dependent upon their merchant shipping they none-the-less failed to protect their merchant shipping. American submarines sank about half of the entire Japanese merchant fleet with little interference from the air. These aircraft could have performed an invaluable service protecting convoys from submarine attack. The traditional Japanese offensive spirit cost them dearly during the war

GERMANY
While it did not reach production or operational service and only one prototype was ever built that was destroyed while tied to its dock at Schaal Lake in September 1944 by three P-51 fighters. You have got to stand in awe at ship builder Blohm & Voss's Bv-238. This huge, six-engined flying boat weighed 120,800 pounds and had a 220,460 pound maximum takeoff weight. A top speed of 264mph and a 4,113 mile range

Then we have the Bv-222 Viking which first flew in September 1940 and was carrying supplies and personnel between Hamburg and Norway in 1941. By the Fall of 1941, the Bv 222 was operating in the Mediterranean theatre, ferrying supplies to the Afrika Corps. As a troop transport, the Bv 222 could transport up to 92 passengers or 72 wounded men on stretchers. The Bv-222 became the largest aircraft to shoot down an enemy airplane during the war, when a Bv 222 (V4) shot down a PB4Y (B-24) patrol plane.
Essentially a custom built aircraft since only 13 Bv 222's ever were built and thus specifications were highly variable. From 1941 onward they were armed with a 13mm machine gun in a forward top turret located behind the control cabin another 13mm machine gun in an aft dorsal turret, four lateral firing 8mm machine guns (two/side) in waist mounts and an 8mm nose gun. In aircraft V2 this arrangement was augmented by turrets mounted on the upper surface of each wing aft of the outboard engines, each carrying a pair of 13mm machine guns. There was an even later armament scheme consisting of three 20mm cannons (one each in the forward top turret and the wing turrets, the aft dorsal turret having been deleted) plus five 13mm machine guns (one in the nose and two/side).

The Bv 222 could haul its crew of 11 and 92 troops and their supplies on its two decks. Most freight and the majority of troops were carried on the lower (cargo) deck. Fuel was carried in a huge tubular wing spar and a passageway in the wings gave access to the engines during flight an also to the wing mounted machine gun turrets that were fitted to V2 and later aircraft.
Four Bv-222 survived the war and were captured by the allies. None survive today.

AMERICAN
Consolidated Vultee's PB2Y Coronado flying boat was a four-engined patrol bomber, transport and flying naval ambulance first ordered by the U.S. Navy in 1936 as the successor to the obsolescent PBY Catalina. Both types served throughout the war. The PB2Y-3 was produced from late 1941 until 1944 and incorporated self-sealing fuel tanks and improved armor protection for the crew. In 1944, production shifted to the PB2Y-5 using Pratt & Whitney R-1830-92 radial engines to save weight and increase load capacity. The change did degrade high altitude performance. However, PB2Y's did not usually operate at high altitude.

The transport versions could carry 44 passengers or 16,000 pounds of cargo. The PB2Y-5H flying ambulance version could accommodate up to 25 stretcher cases. Only one Coronado survives today, the others having been scraped after the war.

It is also important to mention the Martin JRM-1 Mars transport with its 145,000 pound takeoff weight. However only seven were completed since the first production Mars did not enter service until the summer of 1945. The Coronado served throughout the war and was very competitive with the more famous Sunderland flying boat, except in range. The earlier, smaller and less expensive PBY Catalina handily outranged the Coronado, which was the key to the Catalina's longevity.

 

[PAT303]

I'm going to straight up say I love flying boats, don't know why but I've always been fascinated by them. I would have loved to see the Zero and Spitfire float planes duke it out in some remote pacific atoll.

 

[Schweik]

Romain Hugault's art depicting seaplanes and flying boats conveys some of the attraction of them ... and for other things in life of course...

 

[Schweik]

JAPANESE

The Japanese produced the best flying boat of the war: excellent performance, long range and good defensive and offensive armament.
The Kawanishi H8K Type 2, a high performance, four-engined bomber, reconnaissance and transport aircraft code named "Emily" by the Allies. Type 2 flying boats even raided Honolulu, Hawaii in March 1942. Unfortunately they were often used as scouts for Japanese carrier striking forces. However in that role they suffered greatly at the hands of radar directed carrier-borne fighters as they approached U.S. task forces.
The H8K-2 incorporated armor protection for the crew and protected fuel tanks in the wings and fuselage. Defensive armament included single 20mm cannon in the nose turret, dorsal turret, tail turret and (port and starboard) beam blisters. These were augmented by five .303 machine guns firing from hull hatches. Offensive weapons included two torpedoes or 2205 pounds of bombs and depth charges. Performance was excellent, the best of any of the big WW II flying boats. Top speed was almost 300 mph at around 20,000' and the service ceiling was over 28,000'. After the Japanese developed radar, surface search sets were fitted to H8K patrol bombers.
There was a transport version of the H8K which were produced by modifying the existing aircraft. Most of the defensive armament, including the side blisters and dorsal turret, were removed as were the fuselage fuel tanks to increase its cargo volume. The result of these modifications was that the H8K-2L could transport up to 62 combat troops.

As an island nation with few natural resources almost totally dependent upon their merchant shipping they none-the-less failed to protect their merchant shipping. American submarines sank about half of the entire Japanese merchant fleet with little interference from the air. These aircraft could have performed an invaluable service protecting convoys from submarine attack. The traditional Japanese offensive spirit cost them dearly during the war

GERMANY
While it did not reach production or operational service and only one prototype was ever built that was destroyed while tied to its dock at Schaal Lake in September 1944 by three P-51 fighters. You have got to stand in awe at ship builder Blohm & Voss's Bv-238. This huge, six-engined flying boat weighed 120,800 pounds and had a 220,460 pound maximum takeoff weight. A top speed of 264mph and a 4,113 mile range

Then we have the Bv-222 Viking which first flew in September 1940 and was carrying supplies and personnel between Hamburg and Norway in 1941. By the Fall of 1941, the Bv 222 was operating in the Mediterranean theatre, ferrying supplies to the Afrika Corps. As a troop transport, the Bv 222 could transport up to 92 passengers or 72 wounded men on stretchers. The Bv-222 became the largest aircraft to shoot down an enemy airplane during the war, when a Bv 222 (V4) shot down a PB4Y (B-24) patrol plane.
Essentially a custom built aircraft since only 13 Bv 222's ever were built and thus specifications were highly variable. From 1941 onward they were armed with a 13mm machine gun in a forward top turret located behind the control cabin another 13mm machine gun in an aft dorsal turret, four lateral firing 8mm machine guns (two/side) in waist mounts and an 8mm nose gun. In aircraft V2 this arrangement was augmented by turrets mounted on the upper surface of each wing aft of the outboard engines, each carrying a pair of 13mm machine guns. There was an even later armament scheme consisting of three 20mm cannons (one each in the forward top turret and the wing turrets, the aft dorsal turret having been deleted) plus five 13mm machine guns (one in the nose and two/side).

The Bv 222 could haul its crew of 11 and 92 troops and their supplies on its two decks. Most freight and the majority of troops were carried on the lower (cargo) deck. Fuel was carried in a huge tubular wing spar and a passageway in the wings gave access to the engines during flight an also to the wing mounted machine gun turrets that were fitted to V2 and later aircraft.
Four Bv-222 survived the war and were captured by the allies. None survive today.

AMERICAN
Consolidated Vultee's PB2Y Coronado flying boat was a four-engined patrol bomber, transport and flying naval ambulance first ordered by the U.S. Navy in 1936 as the successor to the obsolescent PBY Catalina. Both types served throughout the war. The PB2Y-3 was produced from late 1941 until 1944 and incorporated self-sealing fuel tanks and improved armor protection for the crew. In 1944, production shifted to the PB2Y-5 using Pratt & Whitney R-1830-92 radial engines to save weight and increase load capacity. The change did degrade high altitude performance. However, PB2Y's did not usually operate at high altitude.

The transport versions could carry 44 passengers or 16,000 pounds of cargo. The PB2Y-5H flying ambulance version could accommodate up to 25 stretcher cases. Only one Coronado survives today, the others having been scraped after the war.

It is also important to mention the Martin JRM-1 Mars transport with its 145,000 pound takeoff weight. However only seven were completed since the first production Mars did not enter service until the summer of 1945. The Coronado served throughout the war and was very competitive with the more famous Sunderland flying boat, except in range. The earlier, smaller and less expensive PBY Catalina handily outranged the Coronado, which was the key to the Catalina's longevity.

Great post mikewint!

Yeah comparing the giant flying boats is a tricky one. I have seen that last surviving Coronado in the Pensacola Naval Air Museum, I posted some pics of it in another thread. It was admiral Nimitz personal ride. Very impressive beast. Huge plane.

Here is a little side by side comparison of the big flying boats, just for fun:

Flying boat / In service from / number built / top speed / Cruise speed / range / bomb load / guns / passengers
PBY Catalina / 1936 / 2,600 / 196 mph / 125 mph / 2,520 miles / 4,000 lbs bombs / 3 x 7.62mm, 2 x 12.7mm / 3-10
PB2Y Coronado / 1944? / 217 / 194 mph / 170 mph / 1,070 miles / 2 x torpedoes or 12,000 lbs (!?) bombs / 8 x 12.7 mm in 3 turrets and two waist positions / 44
Martin PBM / 1940 / 1,366 / 205 mph / 135 mph / 3,000 miles / 2 x torpedoes or 4,000 lbs / 8 x 12.7mm in 3 turrets and 2 blister positions / 30
H6K "Mavis" / 1938 / 215 / 211 mph / 138 mph / 2,981 miles / 2 x torpedoes or 1,000 lbs bombs / 4 x 7.7mm, 1 x 20mm /18
H8K "Emily" / 1942 / 334 / 290 mph / 184 mph / 4,444 miles / 2 x torpedoes or 4,400 lbs bombs / 5 x 20mm, 5 x 7.7mm / 41
Sunderland / 1938 / 749 / 210 mph / 178 mph / 1,780 miles / 2,000 lbs / 16 x 7.7mm machine guns in 2 turrets, 2 x 12.7mm / 24 - 82
Do 24 / 1937 / 279 / 205 mph / 183 mph / 1,802 miles / ??? / 2 x 7.92mm mg's , 1 x 20mm / 10
BV 222 / 1941 / 13 / 242 mph / 214 mph / 3800 miles (ferry) / ??? / 5 x 13mm mg, 3 x 20mm mg's, 3 turrets / "up to" 92


It does indeed look like the H8K is the standout for performance, and range too, and maybe armament as well, though the BV 222, Sunderland, PB2Y and PBM are also heavily armed.

Even though only a handful of those BV 222 were made, they did see action and were pretty important as one of the few Axis transport aircraft that could operate in the Med with a relatively good chance of survival. Eventually most of them got shot down flying from the Balkans to North Africa etc. but they made a lot of runs. Much longer lived than a Ju 52 on the same route that is for sure.

The Coronado looks good except for range where is is pretty bad for a seaplane that big. The listed 12,000 lb bomb load (from wikipedia) must be for very short trips only I would imagine. Based on the above I'd have to agree with you that the H8K was the best flying boat of the bunch, the PBM looks like the best American one, which explains why they made 1,300 of them. Funny thing is, it's one you almost never hear anything about.

BV 222 looks like probably the 2nd best overall with the very high cruise speed, long range (second best overall) and heavy armament. But apparently the German flying boats didn't carry depth charges or torpedoes like some of the others, not that I would expect any of them to be effective bombers except for ASW.

Sunderland looks pretty good overall though the range isn't as good as the PBM.

 

[GrauGeist]

There's some really good choices in the list, but my overall favorite would have to be the Bv222 - if for anything, it's the largest aircraft ever to engage and down a comparable sized aircraft in battle (several times) - I included those instances in my "Clash of the Titans" thread a number of years ago.

 

[Schweik]

Well keep in mind you can vote up to 6 times, once for each "category" - seaplane scouts, scout fighters, scout bomber, flying boat, land based maritime patrol or torpedo bomber etc.

I agree though the BV 222 is impressive. I read the account of that battle with the PB4Y before it's pretty intense. Apparently the PB4Y had the armor removed to improve range, I don't know if they did that with all of them? I have also read some accounts of Ju 88C heavy fighters duking it out with those as well.

 

[Schweik]

Did the British have any other big flying boats besides the Sunderland ? I couldn't find any except the Empire but those were civilian transports, albeit quite impressive ones. The closest the Italians had was the CANT Z. 506 but I put that in a different category since it is a twin-float.

 

[GrauGeist]

Did the British have any other big flying boats besides the Sunderland ? I couldn't find any except the Empire but those were civilian transports, albeit quite impressive ones. The closest the Italians had was the CANT Z. 506 but I put that in a different category since it is a twin-float.

Saunders-Roe made some, as did Supermarine.

 

[Schweik]

Ah, I see this one Supermarine Stranraer - Wikipedia seems to be a civilian craft though.

I remember the magnificent Felixstowe F.2 in WWI, of which the Sunderland seems to be kind of the inheritor...

 

[GrauGeist]

Don't forget the ever ugly but infinately reliable Walrus...

 

[GrauGeist]

I should have mentioned that the He59 should be on the list because it was vital in the sea-rescue of any downed pilots during it's Seenotdienst service

 

[Schweik]

That is kind of a different category though it was so small. And from reading Mediterranean Air War they weren't all that reliable, quite often they would rescue pilots in those and then not be able to take off!

I'd call it similar to like a Grumman Duck etc., but those weren't really fighting planes per say more like rescue planes.

Some video of the walrus

 

[Schweik]

I should have mentioned that the He59 should be on the list because it was vital in the sea-rescue of any downed pilots during it's Seenotdienst service

yeah again - that's another category, I ran out of choices on the poll or I would have included those, along with Grumman Duck, Walrus and Ro 40.

 

[fubar57]

The RCAF flew Stranraers though only domestically. Harold A. Skaarup Web page

WIKI: PUBLIC DOMAIN
​

For a workhorse I like the SM.79 and for a gosh darn good lookin' aircraft I like PBY-5A

​

 

[nuuumannn]

"Over the Wine Dark Sea"? And I thought this was about aviation over the Dardanelles - that was the name of an article written about the subject in Over the Front magazine, I think.

It's pretty hard to choose from that list as the types and their roles vary so much. How can you choose between a Curtiss SC Sea Hawk and an Fw 200 as to which is the best? And where is the Supermarine Walrus?

 

[GrauGeist]

...And where is the Supermarine Walrus?

Never fear Grant, I brought up the unjustly overlooked and often maligned Walrus in an earlier post!