Was RLM 02 used as a top-surface camouflage colour on Luftwaffe fighters?

[Crimea_River]

I have not been able to get hold of Dave Wadman yet as he's gone and changed his e-mail address but I've sent him a PM at Britmodeller. In the meantime, here's an interesting article that he wrote a while back which sheds light on both the use 02 as a standard camo colour as well as the development of the greys seen in use during the BoB.

Camouflage and Markings of the Bf109, 1939-40

For those not inclined to read the whole article, I have extracted the following quote and highlighted in Bold Blue some important points:

"Although the standard camouflage on the Bf 109 at the outbreak of war, the fighting in Poland made it clear that while the 70/71 scheme was more than adequate for ground concealment, the same did not hold true for aerial combat. Consequently, numerous field trials to find a suitable replacement were undertaken during the winter of 1939-40 utilising various combinations of the colours Grüngrau[5] 02 and the greens 70 and 71. The successful outcome of these trials resulted in a new camouflage pattern of 02 and 71 that was considered more practical for the then current operations than the earlier scheme. Accordingly, an order was issued dictating that 02 would replace Black-Green 70 in the pattern."

He goes on to say that "Beginning in early 1940 with production of the Bf 109E-4, the 02/71 scheme was applied as a factory finish, whereas the earlier E models already in service appear generally to have been repainted at either local or unit level as and when time allowed, with the attendant broad interpretation of the contents of the order."

Regarding the colour photographs I reference, the caption for the one on page 28 of Photo Archive 1 states in part, "...Russia in mid-1941...The colour shift has produced a blue-grey effect, but the actual colours were 71/02". So even though the photograph was apparently taken in mid-1941 and the colours look to me like 74/75, the author claims the colours were 71/02 due to "colour shift".

In my opinion, the photo is so washed out as to be useless in proving the use of greys in lieu of greens. The author does not claim the colour to be 71/02 "due to colour shift". He just says that it's 71/02 which would at that time have been the standard colour as noted above.

The two colour photographs on page 249 of Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945 Volume 2 are of 109Es. One is dated May 1940, while the other looks like it was taken around the same time. Both look like they have been painted in 74/75 to me, but the author states, "Camouflage was 71/02/65" for one and "Camouflage is 71/02/65" for the other. I don't know why. I have had my eyes tested and I'm not colorblind.

The pic of Black > is even worse than the one mentioned above and so to me proves nothing. The pic of Red 13 is the best of a bad bunch and I would suggest that one would be able to read what you want from it. Though we are both not colour blind, to you the colours look like 74/75 but to me the colour on the nose could just as well be 02.

The colour photograph of an early 109D on page 391 of Vol 2 is clearly painted in 74/75. The author confirms that the colours on the aircraft are 74/75/76, but then apparently uses that information to date the photograph to "after Spring 1941". But as I state above, we know for certain that at least one other early 109 was finished in 74/75, because a 109C was recovered in Norway wearing 74/75, so who's to say the photo on page 391 wasn't taken in early 1940, thus undermining the 71/02 usage claim for that period?

I will quote again from Dave's article: "Although not officially promulgated until November 1941 there is evidence to indicate that the 74/75 schemes was first applied to Bf 109s early in the production run of the F-2 model in mid-1941. On 24 June 1941, an RLM order was issued which, it is understood, officially approved the changeover to a new day fighter scheme incorporating the colours 74 and 75 over 76, this change being further reflected in the reissue of L.Dv.521/1 in November of that year ".

The pictured aircraft has ferry markings so what the author is saying in the caption makes sense - the aircraft likely underwent a major repair at the factory or repair facility and then received what would by then be the new standard colours.

As to the 109C found in Norway, Merrick and Kiroff in Volume 1 of Luftwaffe Markings and camouflage address this:

".....It seems then that this was simply a field trial of the new colours in an area where the aircraft was less likely to be lost in action, or fall into enemy hands and thus compromise the new scheme. The camouflage pattern found on W.Nr. 2450 was the revised form introduced in April/May 1940 [NOTE: It would be helpful to know what this is!!!], so the application of the 74/75/76 scheme is confined to a fairly narrow time band and matches the statutory one year trial period required by E-Stelle Travemiinde.

"Absence of this revised colour scheme on production aircraft dating from this period would appear to support the contention that the paints were still in the field trial stages when the aircraft was lost. Had these paint colours been in production they would have been made available to fighter units when the air battle over Britain erupted, eliminating the endless series of innovative schemes that are in ample evidence in contemporary photographs, and widespread hybrid colours mentioned in intelligence reports."

All of the above is not to say that greys were not used in 1940 and as Dave points out further in his article "It can be found that the mixing of various combinations and percentages of the colours 02, 65, 66, 70 and 71, or similar colours in contemporary paints will produce a variety of grey and blue-grey shades. Most, if not all of these 'grey schemes' would have been suitable for use in the prevailing situation on the Channel Front in the latter half of 1940. It is reasonable to assume therefore that some of these shades were no doubt almost identical to the later 74/75 greys thus leading to the belief in some quarters that this series of colours had been applied to Bf 109s in the summer of 1940."

I will continue to try and contact Dave to find out specifically what order was created to establish the use of 02 in lieu of 70 as I think that should provide the "hard evidence" originally requested.

 

[stona]

"The Kent Battle of Britain Museum has a tail-section relic from a 109E from 1940. Attached is a page from a very old copy of Wingspan magazine featuring a black and white photograph of the tail. The museum in Kent is closed for winter at the moment, but if someone could visit the museum when it reopens and take a colour photo of the tail...."

Funny place the BoB museum! Last time I visited (with P-47 expert and 56th FG historian Nigel Julian) the museum did not permit the taking of any photographs, video etc. I am not aware that the policy has changed, nor why it is imposed. They must have their reasons.

Oddly I don't remember that tail section, but there are several other artefacts in the museum which are clearly finished in what I would consider RLM 02.

With regards to this:

"However, as our friend "The Brushpainter" points out, "You can't get the typical "02/71" scheme by "just painting over" the black green. You have to repaint the entire aircraft, because the dark green ends up where the black green used to be, and the 02 ends up where the dark green used to be. So it's not some kind of "field mod" paint job, done that way. It's an overall repaint, and when they did an overall repaint, I'm convinced that they went ahead and painted the 74/75/76 scheme that became that standard at that time."

There were variations in aircraft modified in service, but the 71/02 scheme was also factory applied (there are some good images of production at WNF).

What about the Fw 190? The first camouflage scheme officially specified for the Fw 190 A series consisted of RLM 74 Graugrün (or Dunkelgrau Grünlich as it was identified in the "Handbuch der Lackierbetriebe") and RLM 75 Grauviolett (Mittelgrau) over RLM 76 (Lichtblau). Remember that only the numeric designation is relevant, the descriptions varied from producer to producer and manufacturer to manufacturer. This is the scheme specified in the November 1941 issue of Luftwaffen Dienstvorschrift (L.Dv.) 521/1 and later HM-Anweisung No.7/42 of 18 May 1942. However, the RAF Intelligence Report describes the colours of Oblt. Armin Faber's Fw 190 A-3, which he was good enough to deliver intact, as dark green, light olive green and pale blue. I could argue quite persuasively, given the typical descriptions in such reports, that this indicated a 71/02/65 scheme.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Airframes]

Good stuff Andy.
With regard to W.Nr.2450 and the "revised form introduced April / May 1940", I'm guessing that this refers to the 'simplified' splinter patter, that is, the actual shape of the camouflage demarcation, and, if I can remember which book (or books) it is in, I have plan diagrams of both the earlier pattern, and the revised form, the latter being the pattern we commonly associate with BoB period Bf109's.

 

[nsmekanik]

Owned by the South Africa National Museum of Military History,
Pic from The Culture Trip , and from the net;
The Messerschmitt Bf109 E3 owned by the Museum was flown by Unteroffizier Hans Wolf on an operational sortie over the south-east of England on 28 November 1940 and seems to have run out of fuel causing it to make a forced landing on a farm at Udimore, Sussex. It was sent to South Africa to appear in a travelling exhibition of enemy equipment during the war, after which it was presented to the Museum in 1944, being one of the first items in the collection

My understanding is that while the paint work is still relatively pristine it has not been repainted.

 

[John D]

Very interesting! Thanks very much! My understanding is (and this was said to me by an AWM museum guide at the Treloar Centre in Canberra, Australia, way back in around 1989) that the only WWII Luftwaffe aircraft in the world with its original paint job still largely intact is the Australian War Memorial's 109G-6.

Messerschmitt Bf 109G-6 fighter aircraft : German Air Force

The paint job on the South African 109 you posted does look a bit too clean and new to me, but I don't have any information on its history at the moment, so I'll need to try and track something down on it.

Thanks for all the other replies too. I will post some comments in reply once I get a bit more time.

 

[Airframes]

From what I remember of the Saxonwold aircraft, it was in a rather sorry state (got a pic somewhere, but it'll take ages to find it), and has been re-painted. The colours are far too 'fresh' to be original.

 

[John D]

Thanks again for all your replies. I'll try to address them as best I can. Here are the problems as I see them with respect to RLM 02 being used as a top surface splinter pattern camouflage colour.

The documentation problem
As far as I can tell, the only surviving documents that mention what paint colour was to be used on fighters between 1938 and 1941 are the Luftwaffen-Dienstvorschriften 521/1 (L Dv 521/1) orders of 22nd March 1938 and November 1941. I have yet to learn of any surviving official document issued between these two orders prescribing a top- surface splinter camouflage pattern colour combination of RLM 02/71 or RLM 02/70. I've seen mention of an order prescribing those colours as fuselage mottling colours, but again I've yet to see any such order clearly identified in any book on the topic. If anyone can clearly identify a surviving order issued between 1938 and 41 prescribing RLM 02/71 as a top- surface splinter camouflage pattern colour combination, I'm all ears.

The Official Monogram Guide states that the 70/02/65 scheme was introduced at the point of manufacture in May 1940. (See page 22) However, Alain Fleuret states, " It has been suggested that as from May 1940, a new 70/02/65 scheme was introduced with the Messerschmitt Bf 109-4, although this type of camouflage has been noted in photographs taken six months earlier. No substantiation, however, has been offered for the use of color 70 (which may equally have been 71) and the assumption appears to depend entirely on the interpretation of black and white photographs, a risky area in which to be so dogmatic as it is such a highly subjective one. As any official orders approving this scheme have yet to be produced, the claim of the existence of such orders must for the moment remain a rather dubious one". (See Alain Fleuret, "Luftwaffe Camouflage 1935-40", 1981, Page 101)

Finally, I note that the very interesting Wadman article you kindly provided, although stating "an order was issued dictating that 02 would replace Black-Green 70 in the pattern", unfortunately provides no reference or citation identifying such an order.

The period colour photograph problem
Regarding the limitations of colour photography in the 1940s, I'll have to defer to your greater knowledge. I'm simply taking a layman's perspective and saying the top-surfaces of 109s in colour photographs I've seen that were taken in 1940 look grey. Colour photographs of most other aircraft taken during the war roughly match the known colours of those aircraft, so it does seem odd to me that an exception has to be made for 109s in 1940.

See here for another interesting colour shot of early 109Es, apparently from LIFE magazine. A few shots of Duxford's 109E, including its largely unrestored right wing are also included here.

All the stupid bf109 questions here

The eye-witness account problem
Regarding Faber's 190A3, that's an excellent point about the RAF Intelligence Report mentioning dark green, light olive and pale blue. However, those greens may have been fuselage mottling colours. Besides, there is another period report on this aircraft that describes it as having a "normal" German fighter camouflage with "a mottled blue-grey finish with pale blue under surfaces". See page 38, Jagdwaffe, Volume 4, Section 1, "Holding the West".

As that article from Wadman states, "However, and to the disappointment of many post-war researchers, there were no set guidelines in these reports for describing the shades of the colours found on these downed aircraft".

Camouflage and Markings of the Bf109, 1939-40

So for example the report on von Werra's 109E-4 states "Camouflage all blue…Fuselage all blue", which is largely true if you're only talking about its under surfaces and fuselage sides. Or a report that says "camouflage grey and green upper" may well be referring to grey wings and green mottling on the fuselage sides. (The above quotes from eye-witness reports can be found in "Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1939-45", Vol. 2, 1976, page 10).

In other words, unless an eye witness account specifically mentions green wings, they may be referring to the mottling colours on the fuselage sides. And even if they do describe the wings as green, how do we know the colour they're referring to isn't the 70/71 splinter pattern? Consider for example Fronhofer's 109E3, which clearly has the revised splinter scheme on its horizontal stabilizer and elevator top surfaces. Yet while the intelligence report states "green upper surfaces" (see page 10 above), an overhead photograph of the wings of Fronhofer's 109 show no splinter pattern contrast, suggesting they were either 70/71 or painted a single green colour. Was Fronhofer's 109 still in the process of being repainted in the revised scheme and the painters hadn't got around to the wings? See here for b&w photos of Fronhofer's 109:

Eduard Bf109 E3, Oblt Wilhelm Fronhofer, 9.JG26, Fallen Eagle

As indicated in my initial post, I'm not disputing the use of RLM 02 for fuselage side mottling; the question is purely whether RLM 02 was used on fighters for the revised top-surface splinter pattern that (based on the examination of black and white photographs) was introduced sometime in late 1939 or early 1940.

Regarding Pingel's 109F, Smith and Gallaspy report that it carried "the standard 74/75/02/70/76 factory scheme". (see Vol 2, page 144) I gather the 02/70 refers to fuselage mottling, which may explain the reported "dark olive green on the upper surfaces" you mentioned.

The timing problem
We know from black and white photographs that the 1938 L Dv 521/1 prescribed splinter pattern scheme of 70/71 was replaced with a simplified splinter pattern and that the under-surface blue was raised up the fuselage sides sometime in late 1939 or early 1940. Alain Fleuret provides a b&w photograph from the winter of 1939-40 on page 100 of his book showing two 109Es in the new scheme, so timing of its introduction is reasonably settled, even without supporting documentation. However, Smith and Gallaspy tell us that "During the middle of 1940 the first BF109Es began to leave the Messerschmitt factories in the new finish of three greys 74/75/76", and they provide a colour photograph to support that claim. (See page 38 of Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1939-45", Vol. 2, 1976).

So, if we go with the RLM02/71 scheme, we're in effect saying that the scheme was changed from 70/71 to 02/71 in Dec 39/Jan 40 and then changed again to 74/75 in June/July 1940. That might not have been a problem at factory level, but what about the aircraft already in service? How long would it have taken for all the 900 or so 109s already in service in the 70/71 scheme to be repainted, given all the markings had to be reapplied and the aircraft were needed on active duty?

And if they were repainted in the RLM02/71 scheme, how long would it take to repaint them again in the 74/75 scheme, given all the markings would have to be applied again and the same aircraft were now busier than ever on active duty? And yet, we're told that between July and September 1940, the "use of two tone greys" in eye witness reports "seems to have been particularly widespread with combinations of grey and green being frequently mentioned". (See page 9 of "Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1939-45", Vol. 2, 1976). 74/75 widespread by July-September? That's a very quick turnaround to 74/75, if indeed it was following close on the heels of 02/71.

In my view the best explanation for all this is that the factories started issuing 74/75 painted 109s in Dec 39/Jan 40, but those already in service were repainted with whatever colour matches field units could mix up and had time to apply to comply with the revised scheme. For instance, here's an interesting example of an apparent in-service repaint in the revised scheme and how slapdash it could be. Note the painter has only carried out a rough approximation of the revised pattern on the wings and fuselage top surfaces, while simply conforming to the old 1938 pattern on the tail surfaces, albeit hopefully in colours approximating the newly-prescribed ones.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8b/57/62/8b5762ace33bd4b5f409a626ff6c8b60.jpg

As attrition eliminated these in-service painted aircraft, the factory painted models began to predominate, thus the preponderance of two-tone greys mentioned in eye witness accounts from July 1940 onwards. After all, average monthly production of 109s in 1940 was only 155.65 aircraft. That's 933.9 aircraft produced between January and July, while 934 109Es were available to Luftflotten in the west on 10 August 1940, suggesting aircraft produced after the introduction of the revised scheme in Dec 39/ Jan 40 were now well represented at the front. (See page 545 of "Warplanes of the Third Reich" 1970 for the above quoted production and in-service figures)

The splinter-pattern problem
As our friend the Brush-painter points out, the revised scheme represents a major repaint and not an overspray of 71 or 70 with RLM 02. Compare the 70/71 scheme and the revised scheme in the diagram below.

To go from 70/71 to 02/71 would require spraying 71 over the existing 70 and 02 over the existing 71. Even going from 70/71 to a scheme of 02/70 would still require spraying 71 over those areas still showing 70, as the revised scheme does not completely overlap or align with the 70/71 scheme.

In addition to a complete respray, the revised scheme also requires the re-application of all top and side surface markings. Not a quick or easy job and not practical to repeat often in wartime when aircraft are needed in service. Yet the case for 02/71 requires a complete respray in late 1939 / early 1940 and then yet another respray of 74/75 in mid-1940 to explain the preponderance of eye-witness accounts of grey colour schemes on 109s by that time.

As an indication that respraying and re-marking was not a quick and easy undertaking for aircraft already in service and that progress in the field appears to have been actually quite slow, note the fact that 109s could still be seen wearing the old 70/71 scheme as late as October 1940. (See the 109E-1 shot down on 8 Oct 1940 on page 74 of "German Aircraft Markings 1939-1945", 1977 by KA Merrick)

The field-testing colour problem
Regarding the proven 74/75/76 painted 109 C-1 that ditched on 2 June 1940 near Lindesnes Norway, I'm not convinced we can simply explain away this significant piece of evidence by claiming it was only a field-test scheme and not representative of 109s in service at the time.

To begin with, where's the documentary evidence to support the colour field-test claim for this aircraft? I note that the quotes from the Merrick/ Kiroff book on this 109C you provided do not cite any documentary evidence to support this claim. I'm also not persuaded by the supporting contention of a "statutory one year trial period" for new colours required by "E-Stelle Travemiinde". A one year camouflage colour testing rule may well have been the case before the war, but it doesn't seem a very practical rule in wartime. If it was, how come the revised scheme of Dec 39 / Jan 40 wasn't tested for a year as well before being introduced?

So, we need period documentary evidence clearly stating that the 74/75 scheme discovered on a 109C operating in Norway in May/June 1940 was a field-test colour scheme. Speculation is helpful, but it's not fact.

The possible origins of the RLM 02 fighter splinter-pattern scheme idea
The earliest reference to the possibility that RLM 02 was used as a top-surface camouflage colour on wartime fighters appears to be this from 1973:

"Although substantiating documents have not been found, it is the author's belief that color 02 was used as a top surface camouflage color either singly or in conjunction with greens or greys. When used in conjunction with either green – 70 or 71 – for the fighter bomber role, 02 would appear as the lighter shade. If used in conjunction with greys – 74 or 75 – for the fighter role, 02 would still appear as the lighter tone." (See page 118, Messerschmitt O-Nine gallery by T. Hitchcock, 1973) Note that "no substantiating documents had been found" and RLM 02 was only the author's "belief", it wasn't fact.

Prior to 1973, published reference sources appeared to take the view that, although fuselage side colouring changed early on in the war, the 70/71 splinter scheme on fighter upper surfaces continued on - at least until the L Dv 521/1 confirmed switch to 74/75 in November 1941. See Profile Publications No. 40 (1965), Roy Cross' "BF 109 versions B-E, classic aircraft no. 2" (1972) or Aircam's "Battle of Britain" No. S1 (1969).

As black and white photographs clearly show a greater contrast in top-surface colours and a revised splinter pattern from as early as late 1939, researchers realized that the Germans had dropped the 70/71 splinter scheme for something else well before 1941, even though no surviving documentation recorded this change. See Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1939-45, Vol. 2, 1976, page 5, for commentary on this realization.

So starting with Hitchcock's "belief" that the revised scheme used RLM 02 with either 70, 71, 74 or 75, researchers appear to have eventually settled on RLM 02/71, even though there are apparently no surviving substantiating documents to support that claim. What started out as a "belief" has over time apparently become "fact".

So guys, if you've got or know of any substantiating period documents supporting the RLM 02/71 idea, please let me know. Alternatively, if you know of any airframe 109 relics from 1940 that still have traces of RLM 02 on the top flying surfaces, please let me know. Quoting secondary sources, which often don't even cite or reference their claims, simply doesn't get us there I'm afraid.

 

[Airframes]

I agree that it's difficult to be positive, without documentary evidence or proof.
However, it does seem that some colour other than RLM 70 and the greys which later became standard was used in 1940.
Whether this was RLM 02 is open to question and, as I previously mentioned, I have long had doubts about the actual shade of this paint when used as a camouflage colour, as it certainly appears to have a different tonal reproduction, when compared to the interior colour of RLM 02.
In some of the colour photos of the period, and allowing for the variations in reproduction, what we call RLM 02 (as a camouflage colour) does have a grey- green tone, which I believe is different to the later greys, and matches the overall colour used on training aircraft, when viewed in colour and B&W period photos.
As I mentioned previously, i still believe that the (camouflage colour) we call RLM 02 is darker than that currently offered by model paints manufacturers, and should be more of a 'slate grey' (greyish green), as originally produced by Humbrol, Compucolor etc, many years ago, a shade that very closely matched the painted fragment I used to have at that time.
However, as is already known, there was a variety of colour schemes during 1940, with the original pattern RLM 70/71/65, the 'simplified' pattern, and the 'simplified' pattern in RLM 71 with what we call RLM 02 and RLM 65, as well as the greys which later became RLM 74/75/76, and combinations of these, where 'old' and 'new' colours could be seen on the same airframe, and it would be wrong to stae that all Bf109s (or Bf110s) were painted either in the greens or the greys.
As far as model colours are concerned, it's a 'best guess' situation, based on photographs of the subject aircraft concerned, and personally, I will continue to mix my version of the camouflage colour commonly referred to as RLM 02, for those subjects where that would appear to be the colour used.

 

[John D]

Well, without the evidence, I can't be as sure of the existence of a 71/02 simplified splinter pattern as you seem to be. If you know of any period German document prescribing the colour combinations of 71/02 or 70/02 for fighter top-surface splinter patterns, I'm all ears. Until such time as an official order comes to light stating the colours of the simplified splinter pattern introduced in the winter of 1939/40, we should only go with the evidence we have; and as far as I can tell that evidence suggests the official splinter pattern colours for that new scheme were RLM 74/75.

With fighters in the simplified scheme leaving the factories and entering service at the rate of 155 a month during 1940, there was clearly a six-month transition period in which the old (70/71), the new (74/75) and the improvised served alongside each other. I think this explains the variety of eye-witness reports and why greys became increasingly seen from June 1940 onwards. I don't see any need to insert the fabled 71/02 or 70/02 schemes into this timeframe, especially when there appears to be no evidence that such schemes ever existed or were officially sanctioned.

With respect to the photograph I mentioned earlier on page 28 of "Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945, Photo Archive 1", I found the following photograph of the same aircraft, which also appears to confirm my impression that the splinter pattern was 74/75 and not 71/02, as claimed.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5c/4b/18/5c4b18446a6402f1f917e382bd099a3d.jpg

Here is the photo I was originally referring to.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9e/ca/7b/9eca7bdd3c78f359ff77386cd8939f15.jpg

Regarding the actual colour of RLM 02, I think the various colour charts and paint chip sets that have been produced over the years provide a good enough impression of what it looked like. I found the following comparison between the various modern-day RLM paint chip reference sources to be interesting, particularly this comment from Jerry Crandall:

"During our visit to Warnecke and B̦ohm, they were kind enough to give us all their original existing RLM paint formulas which we published in the Fw 190 Dora Vol. Two book. Amazingly enough, they told us that no researcher had ever visited them inquiring about WW2 RLM colours!"

RLM Paint Chips

To me, the fact that no researcher had previously contacted an actual manufacturer of RLM paints suggests a lot of research still needs to be done, particularly with respect to tracking down the obviously "missing" order behind the simplified splinter pattern of winter 1939/40 for fighters. Who knows, it's probably sitting in an archive in Germany somewhere.

On the South African 109E previously mentioned, I found the following which says it was repainted in 1991.
South Africa's Warbirds #5

Finally, here a few more interesting colour photographs I came across on the web. I have no idea when or where they were taken, but these 109Es appear to have two-tone grey splinter pattern top surfaces to me. Looking forward to seeing all your colour photographs of the claimed RLM 02/71 scheme.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2f/22/17/2f2217516689a80768092136bfd03c59.png

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/40/ac/87/40ac8775d26783fee0e26a8c6ec734ba.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c2/da/11/c2da1111a86f91f03f9d1da8c703890a.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/59/b3/5b/59b35b704260228477fe9b9a32bb2fc9.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ce/65/a9/ce65a90da5c7240def7352a4ae7870b5.jpg

 

[CATCH 22]

On the photo with Walter Horten's a/c from III./JG26 it appears that there are even 4 camo colours: 2 top greys, one side and one underside colour, the latter being RLM 65.

 

[fubar57]

Aviation of Japan 日本の航空史: The Colour of RLM 02 Grau (Grey)

 

[Wurger]

I wouldn't believe these so-called colour pics. These seem to be either colourized or of incorrect level of the blue. In the case the RLM 02 that was a kind of grey colour, could look like the RLM75. What is more all posted pics above are dated on post-August 1940 or later at least. So it was the time when the camo of RLM74/75 would be more likely. Also It is interesting that the farther from the war end the more and more colour picrures can be found. So earlier it couldn't be possible to find them right?

 

[Crimea_River]

Well, without the evidence, I can't be as sure of the existence of a 71/02 simplified splinter pattern as you seem to be. If you know of any period German document prescribing the colour combinations of 71/02 or 70/02 for fighter top-surface splinter patterns, I'm all ears. Until such time as an official order comes to light stating the colours of the simplified splinter pattern introduced in the winter of 1939/40, we should only go with the evidence we have; and as far as I can tell that evidence suggests the official splinter pattern colours for that new scheme were RLM 74/75.

I don't understand the logic whereby you are rejecting the 70/02 scheme due to a lack of hard, written evidence in the form of a formal order but yet are prepared to accept the use of 74/75 in 1940 when there is, in fact, the exact same absence of documentation to support that conclusion. For history, it's wonderful to have hard facts in the form of direct written evidence but so much of what we accept as "fact" can only, at best. be an assemblage of supporting evidence based on photos, anecdotal evidence, or related documentation by people who have devoted substantial efforts to establish them.

The absence of direct documentation confirming the use of 70/02 does not mean that the scheme was not used.

 

[Crimea_River]

Also, I reiterate my belief that these oft-reproduced colour photographs that can be found on the net are unreliable. Look at the prop blades on the 109 in first pic of post 29. Aren't these supposed to be RLM 70? If that's true then the light "grey" on the wings can easily be 02.

 

[John D]

Thanks very much for your replies.

Regarding "the logic" of rejecting the 70/02 scheme and yet accepting the use of 74/75 in 1940, the fact is we have a German document, the L Dv 521/1 of November 1941, confirming 74/75 as an actual splinter pattern colour scheme. Yes, the document is not dated 1940, but at least it confirms 74/75 as a bona fide German fighter splinter pattern colour scheme, whereas it appears we have no documentary evidence confirming 70/02 or 71/02 as bona fide German fighter colour schemes. Even if there were a document from 1944 prescribing 70/02 or 71/02 as splinter pattern colours, we would at least know those colour combinations were in the realm of possibility or were part of German thinking and may therefore have been used earlier. However, as far as I can tell, the colour combinations of 70/02 and 71/02 started out as a "belief" of Thomas Hitchcock's in 1973, they are not confirmed by any German document issued at any time during the war.

Also, there is hard evidence to support the use of the 74/75 scheme in 1940.

1. The 109C-1 that ditched on 2 June 1940. This was recovered from Norwegian waters, examined by William Berge and found to be using the 74/75 scheme. Yes, there are claims this was merely a "test" colour scheme, but I know of no German documentary evidence supporting such claims.

2. The Duxford 109E-4 on display at Duxford. The right wing has been left unrestored. I've seen it. It's grey.

3. Eye witness accounts. - between July and September 1940, the "use of two tone greys" in eye witness reports "seems to have been particularly widespread with combinations of grey and green being frequently mentioned". (See page 9 of "Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1939-45", Vol. 2, 1976).

4. Surviving colour photographs (or at least the apparent lack of colour photographs showing 70/02 or 71/02).

Now, compare the above evidence to what we have or know of that supports the 70/02 or 71/02 splinter pattern claim. I can't find anything except bold assertions.

"In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence".

— Copi, Introduction to Logic (1953), p. 95

Evidence of absence - Wikipedia

 

[Wurger]

Also, I reiterate my belief that these oft-reproduced colour photographs that can be found on the net are unreliable. Look at the prop blades on the 109 in first pic of post 29. Aren't these supposed to be RLM 70? If that's true then the light "grey" on the wings can easily be 02.

I agree. Let's have a look at the shot of the Black 10 in the post #29
If the fusealge mottling was done with the RLM 74/75 ( it looks like ) what the light colour at the wing top could be.

 

[stona]

Two pictures of the same aircraft, taken at similar times, to demonstrate how pointless any argument from old colour photographs, is.

We don't know how they were shot (what filters etc. might have been used) and we don't know how they have been copied and reproduced.

What we do know is the date and place, which means whatever the images might suf=ggest, that is RLM 74/75 on the wings.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Crimea_River]

While I don't disagree with challenging established thinking, I do struggle with drawing new conclusions without pointing to new facts to support a revision to commonly held beliefs.

It has already been acknowledged by a number of sources quoted in this discussion that a wide range of colour combinations using greys was in evidence in 1940. What there appears to be no evidence of is a documentary link that firmly established the colours to be the future adopted standards 74 and 75. Berge seems to be the only published author to make that leap and it seems none of his esteemed contemporaries (Ullmann, Hitchcock, Creek et. al.) have chosen to pursue the idea. What are Berge's credentials?

Another example of camouflage schemes that appeared in the absence of any official bureaucratic order (that I'm aware of) was JG54's obvious use of wildly different colours and schemes. Evidence does therefor suggest that great flexibility was afforded to combat units to use whatever means available to camouflage their aircraft and that there was no need to wait on the bureaucrats to put it in writing. I would suggest therefore that it is entirely reasonable to reaffirm that the use of various greys in 1940 based on mixes of then-extant paints at the unit level led to the ultimate adoption of the new standard and more effective 74/75/76 scheme.

 

[Airframes]

I totally agree with Andy's response - there is plenty of evidence pointing to the fact that greys were used as an upper surface camouflage in 1940, and it is likely, if not virtually certain, that these were eventually standarised as what we know as RLM 74 and RLM 75. The use of 'greys' during this period is not in dispute
There is also evidence that the original RLM 70/71 upper surface colours were still in use, and again, this is not in dispute
But as I have mentioned more than once in this thread, there is also evidence, both visual (from photo interpretation) and written (from crash reports, descriptions and surviving relics) that another colour was used, in combination with RLM 71, that has come to be referred to as 'RLM 02', which presents a totally different tonal rendition, regardless of the quality of the B&W or colour image being viewed, compared to the 'greens' and 'greys'.
The question might not be "was RLM 02" used as an upper surface colour, but "what colour" was used ?.
This colour has long been referred to as RLM 02 but, as previously mentioned, this seems to have been more of a greenish grey, rather than the currently offered 'beige-green/grey' we see from most model paint manufacturers.
The repeated shot of Horten's aircraft, in Post #30 shows what I firmly believe to be this 'unknown' colour, where the darker colour (allowing for poor overall colour saturation in the reproduction) I believe is RLM 71, whilst the lighter shade is the colour in question, which we refer to, rightly or wrongly, as 'RLM 02' and, even in this reproduction, is close to the colour I originally believed to be RLM 02, as reproduced by model paint manufacturers 30+ years ago.
I don't see 'greys' in this photo, but green and greenish-grey and, again allowing for the poor overall colour reproduction, if I was to describe these shades without using RLM terminology, I would describe them as 'olive green and light slate grey' - the 'green' tone being more visible on the engine cowling and the fuselage spine forward of the tail.

 

[Crimea_River]

FYI, I have finally been able to make contact with Dave Wadman. His computer was hacked and so was out of circulation for a while. He told me that he will put some info together on this topic when the holidays are over.

I'm hopeful that this will help to close the circle on this interesting thread.