Was the corsair as good a fighter as the spitfire or the FW?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hmmm intersting stuff, thanks for sharing it.

 

[syscom3]

Great story flyboy!

I always find the stories of the PTO as the most entertaining. Primitive base conditions, rain, heat and bugs plus long range missions.

Far different than from the ETO or MTO.

 

[lesofprimus]

Good read Joe...

 

[Gnomey]

Good read Joe...

Agreed, good find Joe.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Thanks Guys, I know we went way off subject here but it just kinda rolled!!!

Actually wmaxt directed me there....

Here's some other great sites...
http://www.475thfghf.org/
http://www.475thfghf.org/tactics.htm

 

[Soren]

A P-38 out-maneuvering a Fw-190

wmaxt go ask any veteran FW-190 pilot and he will tell just how much of a turkey the P-38 really was compared to the FW-190. The P-38 was atcually the plane the German fighter pilots were the least afraid of out of all Allied fighters.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

A P-38 out-maneuvering a Fw-190

For the most part no - you always have the pilot skill factor...

wmaxt go ask any veteran FW-190 pilot and he will tell just how much of a turkey the P-38 really was compared to the FW-190. The P-38 was atcually the plane the German fighter pilots were the least afraid of out of all Allied fighters.

True - but at the same time its been shown the P-38 in the ETO was not flown to its full potential. Overall I recognize most -190 marks superior to the P-38 in maneuvability, but if flown correctly by the right pilot it would give any -190 a run for its money - But then again you could almost say that about most fighters......

 

[gaussianum]

Do we have any veteran Luftwaffe pilots on this forum?

Does anyone know of a forum where they hang around?

Cheers

 

[wmaxt]

Actualy The P-38 pilots claim the P-38 was better than the Fw-190. The killrate of the P-38 endorses that 4:1 in the ETO and 5:1 in the MTO thats aggregate but still representitive. Also remember when the majority of the P-38 were in the ETO '43- June, '44, the Germans had both numerical and pilot proficiency superority.

James Morris 20th FG dowened 3 Fw-190s in a single combat, involving tight turns.
25 August P-38s from the 367th encountered Fw-190s of JG-6, in a low level all out battle,8 P-38s and 20 Fw-190 went down. In that fight Lewarence Blumer got 5.

Robin Olds on his first combat got two Fw-190s in a turning fight. This was confirmed by a B-26 that watched the fight.

Galland himself in a Fw-190D was almost shot down by a P-38 in a turning fight that ended up in a Gravel pit. The P-38 had the advantage the whole time but Galland was was unable to escape until the P-38 ran low on fuel and left. Galland confirmed the story.

A quote from Heinz Knoke, "...At once I peel off and dive into the Lightnings below. They spot us and swing around for the attack... then we in a madly milling dogfight...it is a case of every man for himself. I remain on the tail of a Lightning for several minutes. It flies like the devil himself turning, diving, and climbing almost like a rocket. I'm never able to get a shot in.

Here is an excerpt from a letter from Col. Rau C.O. of the 20FG, complaining about training and the complexity of the P-38.
"My personal feeling about this airplane is that it is a fine piece of equipment, and if properly haldled, takes a back seat for nothing that the enemy can produce".

Edit: Heres what Robert Carey, 474th FG, says - " I might comment that I never worried for 1 minute that that If I tangled with the Luftwaffe, I was going to be at a dissadvantage, because the airplane (P-38) could just outperform them."
http://p-38online.com/carey.html

Art Heiden P-38/P-51 pilot also says this
"Nothing, to these pilots, after the hard winter of 1943-1944 could be more beautiful than a P-38L out rolling and tailgating a German fighter straight down, following a spin or a split-s or whatever gyration a startled,panicked and doomed German might attempt to initiate. You just couldn't get away from the P-38L. Whatever the German could do, the American in the P-38L could do better."

The P-38s only flew about 130,000 sorties and about half to two-thirds of those were escort, most Germans probably never saw one. Even at that they have 1,771kills.

Here is a flight test of a P-38F and comparisons to the Spit IX and the Fw-190.
http://www.lanpartyworld.com/ww2/files/p38/p38f/2.jpg

The info I have any P-38 variant was capable of taking on its contemporary Fw-190.

Sorry that site works in my 'favorites' but not in the post.

wmaxt

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

That was a good story the pilot told.

But this topic could soon be turning into a debate between the Corsair vs. Lightning.

What do you think?

 

[wmaxt]

That was a good story the pilot told.

But this topic could soon be turning into a debate between the Corsair vs. Lightning.

What do you think?

Well at least a Lightning vs Fw-190, but your right. A major point can be made here is that the Corsair performance is verry verry close to that of the P-38s, with proponents on both sides.

wmaxt

 

[Soren]

I can't believe you actually believe that wmaxt, its clearly fairy-tales.

The point where a pilot claims the P-38 could out-roll the Fw-190 is a dead give-away. (Not to mention the claim tthat it would outturn one as-well )

You can go ask a Focke Wulf pilot what he thinks of the P-38, and he'll tell you exactly how he feels about it = "Easy prey!" And those are probably the exact words he is going to choose.

Not a single, not one of the Fw-190 or 109 vets I've ever talked to looked at the P-38 as a worthy opponent, "it was like fighting a bomber" one pilot once said! Now that can hardly be described as maneuverable

 

[FLYBOYJ]

You can go ask a Focke Wulf pilot what he thinks of the P-38, and he'll tell you exactly how he feels about it = "Easy prey!" And those are probably the exact words he is going to choose.

Robbin Olds would say the same about the -190

 

[gaussianum]

I can imagine wuerger pilots engaging in turning fights, only if they are inexperienced, or, if they have no altitude to trade for speed.

Maybe both of these factors contributed heavily for the results of the previously mentioned engagements.

 

[Soren]

Using maneuver flaps a P-38 pilot could probably outturn a Fw-190 A-8 or any other non-fighter version. But against a Fighter version A-7 or a D-9 being flown by a properly trained pilot, the P-38 really doesn't stand a chance, unless being piloted by a "very" good pilot.

Robbin Olds would say the same about the -190

Robin Olds tally is mainly a result of ground kills and shooting down young LW boys trying to fly their heavily loaded Fw-190A Bomber Interceptors home from a bomber intercepting mission. That was the fate for many of the LW boys, being bounced and shot on their way home. Not many were shot down as the result of a dogfight.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

But against a Fighter version A-7 or a D-9 being flown by a properly trained pilot, the P-38 really doesn't stand a chance, unless being piloted by a "very" good pilot.

But that was the key

I was being a smart arse about Olds!

 

[wmaxt]

I can't believe you actually believe that wmaxt, its clearly fairy-tales.

I have seen some cornering data that gives a max g corner for a P-38L at 270mph and a radii at 531ft to the Fw-190D9 at 325mph and 769ft. The AAF pilots that fought them are consistent the P-38 could beat a 190.

The point where a pilot claims the P-38 could out-roll the Fw-190 is a dead give-away. (Not to mention the claim tthat it would outturn one as-well )

The Fw-190 rools at its peakof 142deg/sec at ~270mph by 350mph its roll rate is down to 81deg/sec. The P-38L at 350mph is rolling at 88deg/sec and is up to 98deg/sec at 450mph.

You can go ask a Focke Wulf pilot what he thinks of the P-38, and he'll tell you exactly how he feels about it = "Easy prey!" And those are probably the exact words he is going to choose.

Any pilot esp those who haven't seen one and has comfidence in himself and his aircraft would say that, including the P-38 pilots. Obviously you didn't take time to read the Carey site, or Gallands story that in his words "You damn neer killed me that day". You obviously didn't read Flyboys post from John Tilley. If a P-38 can out turn a zero at 100ft do you really think it can't out turn a Fw-190?

I don't think the P-38 was signifigantly better than a 190 but it could go 1:1 with an even or better chance of winning.

Another thing people have decided it takes an exceptional pilot to fly the 38 well - as the training accident numbers show that isn't true - experts were majical in a P-38 but a average pilot was not bad and a slightly better pilot was very dangerous in a P-38 - ask the pilots they shot down! By the way wasn't this true of many aircraft?

wmaxt

Not a single, not one of the Fw-190 or 109 vets I've ever talked to looked at the P-38 as a worthy opponent, "it was like fighting a bomber" one pilot once said! Now that can hardly be described as maneuverable

Well if he hasn't seen one or bounced and ran he wouldn't really know, would he?
You obviously haven't read much about the P-38 have you? There was a saying that was still around for my uncle to hear, If Jesus came back as a plane he'd be a P-38. That doesn't sound like a bomber does it. I will admit and even show you cases where FGs disliked the P-38, some wanted single engine fighters because of a mindset, they never tried to see what the P-38 could do. That kind of thing is not the problem of the aircraft.

 

[wmaxt]

You can go ask a Focke Wulf pilot what he thinks of the P-38, and he'll tell you exactly how he feels about it = "Easy prey!" And those are probably the exact words he is going to choose.

Robbin Olds would say the same about the -190

And quite a few others have said it, in fact I'm still looking for the first pilot who didn't know he could beat any German fighter with a P-38. These guys said that out of experiance not hearsay.

The percentage of P-38 pilots that fought with German fighters is far greater than Luftwaffe pilots that did. 1771 of those that did see a P-38, never came back to correct them. If I were to belive an aircrafts qualifications I'd ask someone who had flown or fought it or fout against it, not someone who "heard" about it.
Second, after June '44 the P-38s were doing ground attack as their primary roll. With the bombers being the Germans first priority target they didn't mix much, so 95% of the German pilots never saw one and if they had never seen a competent twin engined fighter like the P-38, it was easy to dissmiss them, remember hes using the Me-110 as an example - until he shot you down.

wmaxt

 

[wmaxt]

Soren,

Another point about the P-38s turn, after the war some German pilots were invited to fly and test our aircraft. Gunter Raul(sp?) compared the Spitfire to the P-38 with the comment "Its about as good".

Heres another account but from the MTO The story of Charles Hoffman is also in the Stories slot in this forum (Feb 4, 2004).
http://www.1stfighter.org/warstories/hoffman.html

wmaxt

 

[Soren]

I have seen some cornering data that gives a max g corner for a P-38L at 270mph and a radii at 531ft to the Fw-190D9 at 325mph and 769ft. The AAF pilots that fought them are consistent the P-38 could beat a 190.

Hahaha ! It wouldn't happen to be this site: http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/index.html Would it ? Well tell you what, go ahead and take what is written on that site as facts, eventhough the actual author says it shouldn't be taken as such

Just so you know, his calculations are based on "In-game" test results of a game called Warbirds, and reading his work it is very clear that he has no knowledge on aerodynamics at all !

You see in the real world the Fw-190D-9 could actually almost turn with a Spitfire, and at high speed actually out-turn it. The Fw-190A-4 was on par with P-51 in turn rate, while the Fw-190A-5/6 and some A-7's would turn tighter.

The Fw-190 rools at its peakof 142deg/sec at ~270mph by 350mph its roll rate is down to 81deg/sec. The P-38L at 350mph is rolling at 88deg/sec and is up to 98deg/sec at 450mph.

Based on that "Warbird" game, sure... In real life, sorry but no.

Any pilot esp those who haven't seen one and has comfidence in himself and his aircraft would say that, including the P-38 pilots. Obviously you didn't take time to read the Carey site, or Gallands story that in his words "You damn neer killed me that day". You obviously didn't read Flyboys post from John Tilley. If a P-38 can out turn a zero at 100ft do you really think it can't out turn a Fw-190?

I'll respond by asking you wmaxt, do you believe the P-38 could out-turn a Zero at 100ft ?

I don't think the P-38 was signifigantly better than a 190 but it could go 1:1 with an even or better chance of winning.

Sorry but you've got that all wrong wmaxt, the P-38 would need one hell of a pilot controlling it for it to be successful against a Fw-190. And if the Fw-190 pilot knows his plane well enough, the P-38 just hasn't got chance. (Except maybe to dive and run away)

Well if he hasn't seen one or bounced and ran he wouldn't really know, would he?
You obviously haven't read much about the P-38 have you? There was a saying that was still around for my uncle to hear, If Jesus came back as a plane he'd be a P-38. That doesn't sound like a bomber does it. I will admit and even show you cases where FGs disliked the P-38, some wanted single engine fighters because of a mindset, they never tried to see what the P-38 could do. That kind of thing is not the problem of the aircraft.

Well you see most of the guys I was refering to have either shot a P-38 down, or has atleast been bounced by one themselves. And all of them agree that the P-38 was a Turkey compared to both the Fw-190 and Bf-109. It was easy to out-maneuver according to them, and it was 'the' Allied aircraft they were the very least afraid of. And Aerodynamics certainly backs them up !

And about my book knowledge on the P-38, don't worry it is more than sufficient for this discussion.