Was the corsair as good a fighter as the spitfire or the FW?

[Lunatic]

There is also a well known competition with a Spit Griffon that the P-38 dominated.

I'm not sure "dominated" is an accurate description. Lowell in the P-38 claimed victory, but the Spitfire pilot involved probably did so as well. Lowell also cheated on the rules of engagement, they'd agreed to meet at 5,000ft, Lowell climbed much higher and dived down to 5,000ft, in his own words travelling at "about 600mph" at the merge.

In Lowell's own words:

We agreed to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, then anything goes. I took off in a new P38L after my crew chief had removed the ammo and put back the minimum counter balance, dropped the external tanks and sucked out half the internal fuel load. I climbed very high, so that as I dived down to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, I would be close to 600 mph. When Donaldson and I crossed, I zoomed straight up while watching him try and get on my tail. When he did a wingover from loss of speed, I was several thousand feet above him, so I quickly got on his tail. Naturally he turned into a full power right Lufbery as I closed in. I frustrated that with my clover-leaf, and if we'd had hot guns he would have been shot down. He came over the field with me on his tail and cut throttle, dropped flaps, and split-Sed from about 1000 feet. I followed him with the new flaps, banked only about 45 degrees, but still dropped below the treetops.

The men of the 364th were watching this fight and saw me go out of sight below the treetops. Several told me later that they though I would crash. But they were wrong!. All I had to do was move over behind his Spit XV again. He was apparently surprised. He had stated at our briefing that he would land after our fight to explain the superior capabilities of his Spit XV, but he ignored that promise and flew back to his base."

Ever hear two online pilots describe a duel? Both of them will tell you they won. It's only when guns are involved that you get a real idea of who won, because the winner flys away, the loser doesn't. Donaldson (the Spit pilot)'s version would probably be that he'd have shot Lowell down when he zoom climbed away, and again during the Lufberry.

I agree. However I think the salient item from this engagement is that once the P-38 was on the Spits tail, after all E advantage had been spent, the Spit could not shake the P-38.

 

[Hop]

Remember, at lower speeds (below 300 mph) the P-38 had a huge acceleration advantage. From stall to 200 mph no single engine plane could even come close to the acceleration available to the P-38 pilot.

Acceleration is directly proportional to climb rate (both are functions of excess power). Any plane that could outclimb the P-38 at less than 200 mph could also out accelerate it at that speed.

Off hand, that would be later Spitfires, 109s, and a few others at specific heights.

 

[Lunatic]

Remember, at lower speeds (below 300 mph) the P-38 had a huge acceleration advantage. From stall to 200 mph no single engine plane could even come close to the acceleration available to the P-38 pilot.

Acceleration is directly proportional to climb rate (both are functions of excess power). Any plane that could outclimb the P-38 at less than 200 mph could also out accelerate it at that speed.

Off hand, that would be later Spitfires, 109s, and a few others at specific heights.

No, because they could not apply full power without spinning around the prop. The P-38 never had torque roll problems.

 

[Soren]

Well of course - unless the FW pilot makes the mistake of bleeding off too much E in which case you would deploy combat flaps to stay behind him and out turn him to get the shot right?

Except in the P-38 you won't be able to stay behind him, you simply do not have the power or the lift necessary, and if you start to drop flaps to attempt this he's simply going to out-run you in an instance ! (And since both a/c are turning its going to be before you get the chance to acquire the necessary deflection.)

And even if by some miracle you do manage to stay behind him(Very unlikely in a P-38 ), all the Fw-190 pilot has to do then is a quick split S maneuver and he's outta there. A Spitfire couldn't follow this maneuver, so you can be sure the P-38 couldn't as-well. And if you try, well go ask a Spitfire pilot what would happen next...

Remember, at lower speeds (below 300 mph) the P-38 had a huge acceleration advantage. From stall to 200 mph no single engine plane could even come close to the acceleration available to the P-38 pilot.

And how exactly is that ? Take a look at the power-loadings for these aircraft Lunatic, as-well as the flat plate area, and you'll see that definitely wasn't the case !

No, because they could not apply full power without spinning around the prop. The P-38 never had torque roll problems.

Huh ? Well you see Lunatic, spinning around is what a prop does.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

No, because they could not apply full power without spinning around the prop. The P-38 never had torque roll problems.

Huh ? Well you see Lunatic, spinning around is what a prop does.

What he meant was adverse yaw - If both engines were running the P-38 had no adverse yaw...

 

[Soren]

I know FLYBOYJ, I was just making fun of that first part.

If he got the aircraft slowed and applied power (sought of like a power on stall) I believe it was do-able, remember the -38 had no adverse yaw like a single engine fighter - in a power on stall it shook and fell flat if the pitch attitude was flat.

Well with a height advantage I'd guess it was do'able, but if your directly behind him its only going to bite you, as your going to loose height and speed very quickly in this type of maneuver.

 

[Lunatic]

I know FLYBOYJ, I was just making fun of that first part.

If he got the aircraft slowed and applied power (sought of like a power on stall) I believe it was do-able, remember the -38 had no adverse yaw like a single engine fighter - in a power on stall it shook and fell flat if the pitch attitude was flat.

Well with a height advantage I'd guess it was do'able, but if your directly behind him its only going to bite you, as your going to loose height and speed very quickly in this type of maneuver.

The whole point of the hi yoyo is to convert speed to altitude, turn a the lower speed, and then convert the altitude to speed at an advantagous angle. This would allow the P-38 to cut inside the Zero, but it would require a very skilled pilot to pull it off.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I know FLYBOYJ, I was just making fun of that first part.

If he got the aircraft slowed and applied power (sought of like a power on stall) I believe it was do-able, remember the -38 had no adverse yaw like a single engine fighter - in a power on stall it shook and fell flat if the pitch attitude was flat.

Well with a height advantage I'd guess it was do'able, but if your directly behind him its only going to bite you, as your going to loose height and speed very quickly in this type of maneuver.

The whole point of the hi yo yo is to convert speed to altitude, turn a the lower speed, and then convert the altitude to speed at an advantagous angle. This would allow the P-38 to cut inside the Zero, but it would require a very skilled pilot to pull it off.

And the Yo-yo maneuver (High/ low, and slow speed) were first employed during WW2 for this exact reason and later became a standard maneuver taught during air combat training.

Earlier we spoke about using differential power settings for maneuvering. Here is a report done in "modern times" concerning this technique for jet aircraft - it's lengthy, a bit dry reading and not necessarily on this subject matter but it shows that an aircraft can be maneuvered effectively with differential power...

After a US Airways crash of a B737 outside of Pittsburgh several years ago, many suspected that it was due to a "locked rudder." Many airlines developed emergency procedures to deal with this if encountered. My father in law helped write the procedure used by United Airlines and based his work on this paper. He spent time with Gordon Fullerton (Shuttle Astronaut) who assisted in this paper...

 

[Soren]

The whole point of the hi yoyo is to convert speed to altitude, turn a the lower speed, and then convert the altitude to speed at an advantagous angle. This would allow the P-38 to cut inside the Zero, but it would require a very skilled pilot to pull it off.

Well you see, that maneuver might work well against a Zero or Ki-43, but against a Fw-190 its an entirely different matter. Cause there's two very important differences between the Zero/Ki-43 and the Fw-190, and that is Speed Acceleration, and the Fw-190 is vastly superior in both of these.

If a P-38 pulled a hi yo yo maneuver on a Fw-190D-9 it would loose it in an instant. Cause while the P-38 would be able to gain on a Zero or Ki43 in this kind of maneuver, it couldn't on the Fw-190, the Fw-190 would simply out-run and out-turn it at the same time. Cause the P-38 might have a smaller turn radius with its maneuver flaps deployed, but its sustained turn rate is still infinitely inferior to the Fw-190D-9's.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The whole point of the hi yoyo is to convert speed to altitude, turn a the lower speed, and then convert the altitude to speed at an advantagous angle. This would allow the P-38 to cut inside the Zero, but it would require a very skilled pilot to pull it off.

Well you see, that maneuver might work well against a Zero or Ki-43, but against a Fw-190 its an entirely different matter. Cause there's two very important differences between the Zero/Ki-43 and the Fw-190, and that is Speed Acceleration, and the Fw-190 is vastly superior in both of these.

If a P-38 pulled a hi yo yo maneuver on a Fw-190D-9 it would loose it in an instant. Cause while the P-38 would be able to gain on a Zero or Ki43 in this kind of maneuver, it couldn't on the Fw-190, the Fw-190 would simply out-run and out-turn it at the same time. Cause the P-38 might have a smaller turn radius with its maneuver flaps deployed, but its sustained turn rate is still infinitely inferior to the Fw-190D-9's.

If it worked against a KI-43 it WILL work against ANY -190 mark, providing the -190 driver allowed himself to be suckered into the maneuver. The KI-43 was one of, if not the most maneuverable fighter aircraft of WW2 below 300 mph -

There's a lot of assumptions here and its hard to theorize here, but I agree with Lunatic, this is not an impossibility....

 

[Soren]

If it worked against a KI-43 it WILL work against ANY -190 mark, providing the -190 driver allowed himself to be suckered into the maneuver. The KI-43 was one of, if not the most maneuverable fighter aircraft of WW2 below 300 mph -

If the Fw-190 got suckered into a low speed turn fight, where the P-38 has the height advantage and could utilize its maneuver flaps, then yes I agree it is very possible. But the point is a good Fw-190 pilot won't allow that to happen, and since he's got Speed, climb rate, roll rate and turn rate to his advantage he's got every opportunity to avoid it.

There's a lot of assumptions here and its hard to theorize here, but I agree with Lunatic, this is not an impossibility....

I agree, it is not impossible, but it would take alot of skill and luck to pull it off against a Fw-190.

 

[wmaxt]

The Max climb rate of the Fw-190D-9 is rated at 3,250min, another source puts it at 32,800ft in 16min. The P-38L could hit 4,000ft/min (chart shown below) and hit 35,000ft from sea level in 15min in METO power 17,400#(pilots handbook). Even if you only accept the 1600hp max for each engine of the P-38L max climb should be in the 3800ft/min range. The 190 could not out climb the P-38L anywhere.

The P-38H had a climb of 3,500ft/min and could reach 35,000ft in 13 min and is still climbing at 1,200ft/min in '43 16,100# combat weight METO power.

wmaxt

 

[Soren]

The Fw-190 Dora-9 has a climb rate of 3,642 ft/min, and will reach 20,000ft in 7min 6 sec, max climb rate using "Sonder Notleistung mit a lader als bodenmotor" would be even higher. While the P-38L has a climb rate of 2857 ft/min at normal combat weight(17500 lbs).

This also compares well with the power-loading figures(Especially when we add the flat plate area):

P-38L: 5.93 lbs/hp
Fw-190D-9: 4.22 lbs/hp

Your figures must be for a VERY lightly loaded P-38 !

 

[wmaxt]

The Fw-190 Dora-9 has a climb rate of 3,642 ft/min, and will reach 20,000ft in 7min 6 sec, max climb rate using "Sonder Notleistung mit a lader als bodenmotor" would be even higher. While the P-38L has a climb rate of 2857 ft/min at normal combat weight(17500 lbs).

This also compares well with the power-loading figures(Especially when we add the flat plate area):

P-38L: 5.93 lbs/hp
Fw-190D-9: 4.22 lbs/hp

Your figures must be for a VERY lightly loaded P-38 !

No as I quoted above there for an L model at 17,400lbs, combat weight.

wmaxt

 

[Soren]

Don't tell me you actually believe in those figures wmaxt ?!

Obviously somethings terribly wrong with those figures, cause they're fantasy like.

According to those figures the P-38 weighing 17,400 lbs, and using only 1,100hp of power, would reach 20,000ft faster than a plane only half that weight and with more power available. So it doesn't take a genius to figure out that there's something seriously not right about those figures...

 

[KraziKanuK]

Soren don't be such a twit. Any idiot can see that there is something wrong with the labelling of the graph.

You also forgot to double the hp as there is 2 engines.

 

[Soren]

Soren don't be such a twit. Any idiot can see that there is something wrong with the labelling of the graph.

Krazi there's no need be rude, its easy to see the graph, its just a little blurred thats all.

You also forgot to double the hp as there is 2 engines.

No I didn't Krazi, 1100+1100 equals 2200, thats 40 less horsepower than the Fw-190D-9

But obviously you forgot to look at the power-loading and flat plate area !

 

[syscom3]

All the sources Ive seen for time to climb to 20,000 feet for the P38, were in the 6.0 minute range (+/- a few seconds).

 

[Soren]

Thats preposterous !

We're talking about a plane which weighs twice that of an ordinary single engined fighter, and it doesn't even have twice the power ! And the wing-loading and drag of the P-38 is also waay higher !

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Thats preposterous !

We're talking about a plane which weighs twice that of an ordinary single engined fighter, and it doesn't even have twice the power ! And the wing-loading and drag of the P-38 is also waay higher !

I gotta agree with Soren - I just looked in a POH - Time to 15,000 feet in a J with V-1710s-89/91 was 5 minutes, 9 minutes to 25,000 @ 17,400 lbs.

An L at 17,400 still shows a 9 minute climb to 25,000, 5 minutes to 15,000.

Best climb speed between SL and 25,000 is 180 - 170 MPH (Vx)