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Soren said:You see in the real world the Fw-190D-9 could actually almost turn with a Spitfire, and at high speed actually out-turn it. The Fw-190A-4 was on par with P-51 in turn rate, while the Fw-190A-5/6 and some A-7's would turn tighter.
Soren said:Based on that "Warbird" game, sure... In real life, sorry but no.
Soren said:I'll respond by asking you wmaxt, do you believe the P-38 could out-turn a Zero at 100ft ?
Soren said:Sorry but you've got that all wrong wmaxt, the P-38 would need one hell of a pilot controlling it for it to be successful against a Fw-190. And if the Fw-190 pilot knows his plane well enough, the P-38 just hasn't got chance. (Except maybe to dive and run away)
Soren said:Well you see most of the guys I was refering to have either shot a P-38 down, or has atleast been bounced by one themselves. And all of them agree that the P-38 was a Turkey compared to both the Fw-190 and Bf-109. It was easy to out-maneuver according to them, and it was 'the' Allied aircraft they were the very least afraid of. And Aerodynamics certainly backs them up !
Soren said:And about my book knowledge on the P-38, don't worry it is more than sufficient for this discussion.
No I don't take it as fact but it should be representitive. But I suppose I deserved that one.
AS I posted Rall compared the Spitfire to the P-38.
There is also a well known competition with a Spit Griffon that the P-38 dominated.
Stienhoff stated "the clear superority of the Lightning in speed and maneuverability over our aircraft"
Galland couldn't get away.
Knoke couldn't close
The AAF pilots belived they could and they actually flew P-38s in combat against Fw-190s - I'm willing to bet your German pilots, judging from their remarks, never saw a P-38, or bounced the one they did.
last here is a test by the British of a F model againse a SpitIX and comparison with a Fw-190 on the Docs page.
http://prodocs.netfirms.com
No, actual tests, you'll find the chart in http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/RollChart.html
It was done and witnessed. My pilots handbook for the P-38 gives a power on full flaps gear down minimum speed at 67mph
Sorry, I gave you examples where it was done, who did it, the opinions of "Both" sides that even give the P-38 an edge on the very best the Germans had. That should be enough to pique your intrest to find out for yourself. All you've come up with is derision, flat statements, and a couple of quotes from German pilots that probably never encountered a P-38.
Four out of five German aircraft that met P-38s, 5 out of six in the MTO, didn't make it home. The fifth got the P-38, he, with some right probably thought it wasn't capable. Did they really or was it a successful bounce, The P-38 was a turkey for the first 30 seconds if caught unawares when the pilot was switching from cruise to combat mode.
Areodynamic certaintiy? Heres a couple of examples of why the P-38 works as well as it does
1, high aspect ratio of 8 giving high speed while preserving maneuverability and climb.
2, Power was split doubling prop sweopt area giving efficent use of the power available and for above average pilots differential throttle control. Trim changes were minimal, single engine aircraft change trim every time power changes. Central guns.
3, Tail length to chord ratio in the P-38 was 4:1, most fighters had a ratio of 2/2.5:1. The longer ratio gives more torque to the controls and lets them be smaller for less drag for the same effect. it also lowered control forces
4, the J-25 and L models had hydralic ailerons that got better as the speed increased even after it became too hard for other planes to maintain their roll rate.
Well if its all the old propaganda I can see where your coming from. I'm dissapointed you won't even considder looking into it, I've certainly given enough info to question it.
Full flaps? Not impossible but probably not done; Maneuvering (10 to 12 degrees)? YES! Recommended or done routinely? Hell no! Suicidal? Only if you don't get away with it!Soren said:[
The P-38 had very effective flaps, there's no getting around that, but deploying full flaps was impossible in a dogfight wmaxt.
Soren said:Well if you'd want your flaps jammed or damaged then it might be a good idea, but otherwise no. Obviously the Fw-190 pilot would want the fight to take place at high speed, so deploying too much flaps would spell disaster for the P-38.
I agree - but you still have that one pilot that could it and get away with it - I've seen little posted about this as far as P-38 vs Fw-190, but you could look at that post earlier when it was done against an Oscar. An Oscar (ki-43) is (was) way more maneuvable than an -190 under 300 mph....Soren said:Would you recommend flying with half flaps deployed against a Fw-190 ? I sure wouldn't. Cause if you loose speed against a Fw-190, your dead. (Like so many Spitfire pilots learned)
Soren said:Well if you'd want your flaps jammed or damaged then it might be a good idea, but otherwise no. Obviously the Fw-190 pilot would want the fight to take place at high speed, so deploying too much flaps would spell disaster for the P-38.
Lunatic said:The P-38 had fowler flaps and these could be deployed effectively without significant chance of jamming. They slide out of the wing and curl down. Besides, the P-38 flaps (and many other US planes) had force limiters and trying to put down too much flap for the given speed was impossible.
Later model P-38's also had dive recovery flaps which could be utilized at any speed, acting as a sort of air-brake.
There is also a well known competition with a Spit Griffon that the P-38 dominated.
We agreed to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, then anything goes. I took off in a new P38L after my crew chief had removed the ammo and put back the minimum counter balance, dropped the external tanks and sucked out half the internal fuel load. I climbed very high, so that as I dived down to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, I would be close to 600 mph. When Donaldson and I crossed, I zoomed straight up while watching him try and get on my tail. When he did a wingover from loss of speed, I was several thousand feet above him, so I quickly got on his tail. Naturally he turned into a full power right Lufbery as I closed in. I frustrated that with my clover-leaf, and if we'd had hot guns he would have been shot down. He came over the field with me on his tail and cut throttle, dropped flaps, and split-Sed from about 1000 feet. I followed him with the new flaps, banked only about 45 degrees, but still dropped below the treetops.
The men of the 364th were watching this fight and saw me go out of sight below the treetops. Several told me later that they though I would crash. But they were wrong!. All I had to do was move over behind his Spit XV again. He was apparently surprised. He had stated at our briefing that he would land after our fight to explain the superior capabilities of his Spit XV, but he ignored that promise and flew back to his base."
If he got the aircraft slowed and applied power (sought of like a power on stall) I believe it was do-able, remember the -38 had no adverse yaw like a single engine fighter - in a power on stall it shook and fell flat if the pitch attitude was flat.Soren said:These facts about the P-38 below are evidence enough to disprove any claim that the P-38 could normally turn with a Fw-190 or Bf-109 in a dogfight(And especially not a Ki-43 !), it would simply bleed energy way too quickly.
Well said, I think that's the whole point here...Soren said:Lastly Im not going to deny that a very good P-38 pilot could bring down an aware Bf-109 or Fw-190 pilot, as we've seen pilots do amazing feats with less than amazing aircraft, but it was definitely the exception rather than the rule !
Soren said:Lunatic said:The P-38 had fowler flaps and these could be deployed effectively without significant chance of jamming. They slide out of the wing and curl down. Besides, the P-38 flaps (and many other US planes) had force limiters and trying to put down too much flap for the given speed was impossible.
Later model P-38's also had dive recovery flaps which could be utilized at any speed, acting as a sort of air-brake.
Lunatic you don't use flaps against a Fw-190, it'll be the biggest and last mistake you'll ever make. If you loose speed against a Fw-190 your as good as dead, and deploying flaps 'will' decrease your speed.
FLYBOYJ said:Well said, I think that's the whole point here...Soren said:]
Lastly Im not going to deny that a very good P-38 pilot could bring down an aware Bf-109 or Fw-190 pilot, as we've seen pilots do amazing feats with less than amazing aircraft, but it was definitely the exception rather than the rule !