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Hop said:There is also a well known competition with a Spit Griffon that the P-38 dominated.
I'm not sure "dominated" is an accurate description. Lowell in the P-38 claimed victory, but the Spitfire pilot involved probably did so as well. Lowell also cheated on the rules of engagement, they'd agreed to meet at 5,000ft, Lowell climbed much higher and dived down to 5,000ft, in his own words travelling at "about 600mph" at the merge.
In Lowell's own words:
We agreed to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, then anything goes. I took off in a new P38L after my crew chief had removed the ammo and put back the minimum counter balance, dropped the external tanks and sucked out half the internal fuel load. I climbed very high, so that as I dived down to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, I would be close to 600 mph. When Donaldson and I crossed, I zoomed straight up while watching him try and get on my tail. When he did a wingover from loss of speed, I was several thousand feet above him, so I quickly got on his tail. Naturally he turned into a full power right Lufbery as I closed in. I frustrated that with my clover-leaf, and if we'd had hot guns he would have been shot down. He came over the field with me on his tail and cut throttle, dropped flaps, and split-Sed from about 1000 feet. I followed him with the new flaps, banked only about 45 degrees, but still dropped below the treetops.
The men of the 364th were watching this fight and saw me go out of sight below the treetops. Several told me later that they though I would crash. But they were wrong!. All I had to do was move over behind his Spit XV again. He was apparently surprised. He had stated at our briefing that he would land after our fight to explain the superior capabilities of his Spit XV, but he ignored that promise and flew back to his base."
Ever hear two online pilots describe a duel? Both of them will tell you they won. It's only when guns are involved that you get a real idea of who won, because the winner flys away, the loser doesn't. Donaldson (the Spit pilot)'s version would probably be that he'd have shot Lowell down when he zoom climbed away, and again during the Lufberry.
Remember, at lower speeds (below 300 mph) the P-38 had a huge acceleration advantage. From stall to 200 mph no single engine plane could even come close to the acceleration available to the P-38 pilot.
Hop said:Remember, at lower speeds (below 300 mph) the P-38 had a huge acceleration advantage. From stall to 200 mph no single engine plane could even come close to the acceleration available to the P-38 pilot.
Acceleration is directly proportional to climb rate (both are functions of excess power). Any plane that could outclimb the P-38 at less than 200 mph could also out accelerate it at that speed.
Off hand, that would be later Spitfires, 109s, and a few others at specific heights.
Well of course - unless the FW pilot makes the mistake of bleeding off too much E in which case you would deploy combat flaps to stay behind him and out turn him to get the shot right?
Remember, at lower speeds (below 300 mph) the P-38 had a huge acceleration advantage. From stall to 200 mph no single engine plane could even come close to the acceleration available to the P-38 pilot.
No, because they could not apply full power without spinning around the prop. The P-38 never had torque roll problems.
Soren said:No, because they could not apply full power without spinning around the prop. The P-38 never had torque roll problems.
Huh ? Well you see Lunatic, spinning around is what a prop does.
What he meant was adverse yaw - If both engines were running the P-38 had no adverse yaw...
If he got the aircraft slowed and applied power (sought of like a power on stall) I believe it was do-able, remember the -38 had no adverse yaw like a single engine fighter - in a power on stall it shook and fell flat if the pitch attitude was flat.
Soren said:I know FLYBOYJ, I was just making fun of that first part.
If he got the aircraft slowed and applied power (sought of like a power on stall) I believe it was do-able, remember the -38 had no adverse yaw like a single engine fighter - in a power on stall it shook and fell flat if the pitch attitude was flat.
Well with a height advantage I'd guess it was do'able, but if your directly behind him its only going to bite you, as your going to loose height and speed very quickly in this type of maneuver.
Lunatic said:Soren said:I know FLYBOYJ, I was just making fun of that first part.
If he got the aircraft slowed and applied power (sought of like a power on stall) I believe it was do-able, remember the -38 had no adverse yaw like a single engine fighter - in a power on stall it shook and fell flat if the pitch attitude was flat.
Well with a height advantage I'd guess it was do'able, but if your directly behind him its only going to bite you, as your going to loose height and speed very quickly in this type of maneuver.
The whole point of the hi yo yo is to convert speed to altitude, turn a the lower speed, and then convert the altitude to speed at an advantagous angle. This would allow the P-38 to cut inside the Zero, but it would require a very skilled pilot to pull it off.
Lunatic said:The whole point of the hi yoyo is to convert speed to altitude, turn a the lower speed, and then convert the altitude to speed at an advantagous angle. This would allow the P-38 to cut inside the Zero, but it would require a very skilled pilot to pull it off.
Soren said:Lunatic said:The whole point of the hi yoyo is to convert speed to altitude, turn a the lower speed, and then convert the altitude to speed at an advantagous angle. This would allow the P-38 to cut inside the Zero, but it would require a very skilled pilot to pull it off.
Well you see, that maneuver might work well against a Zero or Ki-43, but against a Fw-190 its an entirely different matter. Cause there's two very important differences between the Zero/Ki-43 and the Fw-190, and that is Speed Acceleration, and the Fw-190 is vastly superior in both of these.
If a P-38 pulled a hi yo yo maneuver on a Fw-190D-9 it would loose it in an instant. Cause while the P-38 would be able to gain on a Zero or Ki43 in this kind of maneuver, it couldn't on the Fw-190, the Fw-190 would simply out-run and out-turn it at the same time. Cause the P-38 might have a smaller turn radius with its maneuver flaps deployed, but its sustained turn rate is still infinitely inferior to the Fw-190D-9's.
FLYBOYJ said:If it worked against a KI-43 it WILL work against ANY -190 mark, providing the -190 driver allowed himself to be suckered into the maneuver. The KI-43 was one of, if not the most maneuverable fighter aircraft of WW2 below 300 mph -
There's a lot of assumptions here and its hard to theorize here, but I agree with Lunatic, this is not an impossibility....
Soren said:The Fw-190 Dora-9 has a climb rate of 3,642 ft/min, and will reach 20,000ft in 7min 6 sec, max climb rate using "Sonder Notleistung mit a lader als bodenmotor" would be even higher. While the P-38L has a climb rate of 2857 ft/min at normal combat weight(17500 lbs).
This also compares well with the power-loading figures(Especially when we add the flat plate area):
P-38L: 5.93 lbs/hp
Fw-190D-9: 4.22 lbs/hp
Your figures must be for a VERY lightly loaded P-38 !
KraziKanuK said:Soren don't be such a twit. Any idiot can see that there is something wrong with the labelling of the graph.
KraziKanuK said:You also forgot to double the hp as there is 2 engines.
Soren said:Thats preposterous !
We're talking about a plane which weighs twice that of an ordinary single engined fighter, and it doesn't even have twice the power ! And the wing-loading and drag of the P-38 is also waay higher !