Was the P-61 Black Widow a good night fighter?

riacrato · Nov 14, 2009

IIRC the turret wasn't fitted to a lot of the P-61s operating in Europe. And If you compare it to a Ju 88 G, which is the only fair comparison to a German night fighter, you will see that its armament was comparable. And even without any turret I'm tempted to take a Mosquito over both of them.

Hop · Nov 14, 2009

The P-61 wasn't really fast enough when it entered service in 1944. At the same time as the Widow went operational the Mosquito NF 30 was capable of over 400 mph.

I quess that I would have to give it to the Widow in case of electronics, and firepower.

Contemporary Mosquito night fighters had the same radar and the same 4 20mm armament.

davebender · Nov 14, 2009

The U.S. Army Air Corps operated some Mosquito night fighters during WWII. An aircraft arguably superior to the P-61. So why not stick with the Mosquito until the F7F enters service?

tomo pauk · Nov 14, 2009

Only thing P-61 lacked was timing. One year earlier into fray, or at least six moths, it would make a mess out of axis planes over Germany and Pacific. In the last war year there was no more glory to grab for a new night fighter (unless Germans produced something that could destroy Mossies in droves).

davebender · Nov 14, 2009

What does that arguement prove? The same thing could be said for a lot of WWII era weapons. For instance if the Do-217 bomber and Fw-190A fighter appear a year early the Battle of Britain looks a lot different.

tomo pauk · Nov 14, 2009

Hmmm, lets see:
R-2800 was around in 1941.
The AI radar equipped RAF planes were flying in 1941 in numbers.
Both were reliable for military use.

Luftwaffe needed the BMW-801 to have 190 and 217.
801 was reliable in 1942.

My conclusion:
While P-61 was very much feasible at least in 1943, the planes you mentioned would be falling as bricks from the sky, without RAF's intervention, in 1940.

Njaco · Nov 14, 2009

I'm away at work at the moment and not with my resources but....

I believe it was the Me-262B that was the night-fighter version and mostly flown by Kurt Welter.

Erich · Nov 14, 2009

Welter's unit had their twin seaters operating separate from the Me 262A-1's that were the standard for the staffel. Same area but different concrete and grass fields, more in my book and yes this was the type that was suppose to combat the Mossie ......... good luck !

I would say overall the Ju 88G-6 was superior to the P-61 A and B. the 9th AF removed all upper turrets from their Widows, didn't need them, radar ops position was moved right behind the pilot

Messy1 · Nov 14, 2009

The P-61 was purpose designed to carry the most advanced radar of the day, which was a big, bulky unit. I do not see the high top speed being as big of a factor as in a day fighter. The role of a night fighter has different requirements than that of a day fighter. The P-61 was designed to sneak up on it's opponents and blow them out of the sky. All the speed in the world will not help you if you cannot find the enemy in the first place. The P-61 had a 1600 mile range with the use of 4 drop tanks so it could hang and loiter around waiting for targets of opportunity. I do believe had it been available earlier in the war, it would have proven it's value and become the dominant Allied night fighter.

davebender · Nov 14, 2009

All the speed in the world will not help you if you cannot find the enemy in the first place.

Did the P-61 have AI radar superior to the Ju-88G and Mosquito?

Messy1 · Nov 14, 2009

davebender said:
Did the P-61 have AI radar superior to the Ju-88G and Mosquito?

Off of Wiki. Mosquitos used two different styles of radar. The AI Mk IV was standard, and some were upgraded to a AI Mk VIII radar. The Black Widow used a SCR-720 radar. I am not the guy to ask which one was superior, my thinking is the Black Widows was the most advanced at the time in a plane. I may be wrong. I am sure someone on here will tell us for sure which one was best, including the JU-88's radar system.

Erich · Nov 14, 2009

the performance ration between the Ju and the Widow......well ah have interviewed those that have flown those crates from both sides. that is a decison that is left for the preference of those crews in their minds as they did not fly each others units to even make a fair comparison. the Mossie XXX was the supreme Allied craft for nocturnal excursions.

have mentioned this in the past I was a member of the US NF association before it's disbandonment so was able to have copies of the 9th ETO units official microfische. with that I composed back in the early 80's ? some pretty heavy hitting data fo the NF war in general and my personal studies. What I did find though AI was the norm for the Widow that the 422nd and 425nfs squadrons and elts just say in equal if not more crates than a regular LW NF staffel had an incredibly high percentage of AI breakdowns while on ops. does this mean just faulty electronics or ground techs not knowing the AI's in and outs.............. that cannot be determined, what I also found was the crews of the Widows ID was not in part that great and many Allied NF's were chased with the results of 0 engagements, thank GOD. the AI for the Widow according to the data picked up loads of ground interference.

in my opinion the alte war SN-2 of the LW was nothing but crap. it was plugged by Window with ease, only in march of 45 when they introduced their own version of AI were they then on par with the Allies. their Naxos was a standard never blocked by Allied intel during 1945, but not all Ju's were fitted. It is still a wonder to me that with all the bombing of the Reich that the LW NF force was still to acquire new gadgets to work with right till wars end.

lets remember about loiter time, the Allies needed a long range crate unti making bases on the continent, the LW on the other hand defending it's own airpsace needed none of the extra afuels as it had bases enough to refill if at all possible, the drawback of corse was the 262 NF even with twin nose drop tanks it was not enough to hang with BC bombers for a lengthy period for attack. but too the tactics for Welters band was different than the overal LW NF force.

drgondog · Nov 14, 2009

davebender said:
I agree. The U.S. Navy F7F had far superior performance. Why didn't the U.S. Army Air Corps purchase a night fighter variant of the F7F rather then the historical P-61?

The F7F was first deployed to USMC in summer 1945 due to the issues during carrier trials - a year later than the P-61.

davebender · Nov 14, 2009

first deployed to USMC in summer 1945 due to the issues during carrier trials

Yes but when did those carrier trials start? That's the beginning point for F7F operational service.

Hop · Nov 14, 2009

Off of Wiki. Mosquitos used two different styles of radar. The AI Mk IV was standard, and some were upgraded to a AI Mk VIII radar. The Black Widow used a SCR-720 radar. I am not the guy to ask which one was superior, my thinking is the Black Widows was the most advanced at the time in a plane.

From 1943 onwards the AI Mk X supplanted AI Mk VIII in the Mosquito. The Mk X was a British version of the SCR-720. So no difference in the radar fits at all.

Njaco · Nov 14, 2009

Erich said:
the performance ration between the Ju and the Widow......well ah have interviewed those that have flown those crates from both sides. that is a decison that is left for the preference of those crews in their minds as they did not fly each others units to even make a fair comparison. the Mossie XXX was the supreme Allied craft for nocturnal excursions.

have mentioned this in the past I was a member of the US NF association before it's disbandonment so was able to have copies of the 9th ETO units official microfische. with that I composed back in the early 80's ? some pretty heavy hitting data fo the NF war in general and my personal studies. What I did find though AI was the norm for the Widow that the 422nd and 425nfs squadrons and elts just say in equal if not more crates than a regular LW NF staffel had an incredibly high percentage of AI breakdowns while on ops. does this mean just faulty electronics or ground techs not knowing the AI's in and outs.............. that cannot be determined, what I also found was the crews of the Widows ID was not in part that great and many Allied NF's were chased with the results of 0 engagements, thank GOD. the AI for the Widow according to the data picked up loads of ground interference.

in my opinion the alte war SN-2 of the LW was nothing but crap. it was plugged by Window with ease, only in march of 45 when they introduced their own version of AI were they then on par with the Allies. their Naxos was a standard never blocked by Allied intel during 1945, but not all Ju's were fitted. It is still a wonder to me that with all the bombing of the Reich that the LW NF force was still to acquire new gadgets to work with right till wars end.

lets remember about loiter time, the Allies needed a long range crate unti making bases on the continent, the LW on the other hand defending it's own airpsace needed none of the extra afuels as it had bases enough to refill if at all possible, the drawback of corse was the 262 NF even with twin nose drop tanks it was not enough to hang with BC bombers for a lengthy period for attack. but too the tactics for Welters band was different than the overal LW NF force.

Erich would the Brits or US use the same equipment to defend against Intruder missions?

Messy1 · Nov 14, 2009

Thanks Hop! I stand corrected. Not the first time, and with the knowledge on this fourm, I am certain it won't be the last!

drgondog · Nov 14, 2009

davebender said:
Yes but when did those carrier trials start? That's the beginning point for F7F operational service.

Not for a practical night fighter.

The marines first started training ops ~ April 1944 in the -1 (single seat ground based fighter while USN was having problems in carrier qual with single engine landing issues and tail hook), but the first deployment of the night fighter version with two seat/radar operator was the -2 and -2N which deployed to Guam in July 1945.

Erich · Nov 14, 2009

Njaco

that is a yes at first until the US did in town development, still too many probs and a host of associations with it, ghost like imagery, views of Me 262's and Me 163 fighters at night in early December 44 when in reality Welter was just trying to form up way to the north by Berlin where the 9th Af was not operating. weather even dictated some probs, two Bostons were shot down by mistake by 9th AF Widows due to faulty ID.

V-2's were also claim seen in the distance taking off for who knows where.

for the goodness of the A/C this thing could carry some of the first downloads of Naphalm in the area of the Moselle which of course must of been a rather shock to German ground forces/M-T and in the railroad crossings

Shortround6 · Nov 14, 2009

davebender said:
Yes but when did those carrier trials start? That's the beginning point for F7F operational service.

The First flight of a F7F prototype was in Nov/Dec of 1943. The First P-61 Squadron Embarked on ship for transfer to England (after training) in Feb of 1944. Considering that the first flight of a P-61 was about 21 months earlier I think we can see that the F7F was vaporware for combat in Europe.
THe Intial orders for Prototypes were placed back in 1941.
THe F7F simply wasn't as far along in development as the P-61 when the Army ordered the P-61 and production orders for hundreds of both aircraft were signed before the Protoypes even flew.

Was the P-61 Black Widow a good night fighter?

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