Was the P-61 Black Widow a good night fighter?

[drgondog]

The First flight of a F7F prototype was in Nov/Dec of 1943. The First P-61 Squadron Embarked on ship for transfer to England (after training) in Feb of 1944. Considering that the first flight of a P-61 was about 21 months earlier I think we can see that the F7F was vaporware for combat in Europe.
THe Intial orders for Prototypes were placed back in 1941.
THe F7F simply wasn't as far along in development as the P-61 when the Army ordered the P-61 and production orders for hundreds of both aircraft were signed before the Protoypes even flew.

Not to mention that 'gentlemen simply didn't purchase Navy a/c" as the saying went for the USAAF..

 

[davebender]

These same "gentlemen" did purchase Canadian made Mosquito aircraft. Perhaps they could find it in their heart to purchase superior American made F7F aircraft that were originally designed to a USN specification.

Mosquito Aircraft Production at Downsview

The first USAAF F.8 Mosquito was delivered to Wright Field, Ohio, on June 1. This was serial number 334928, formerly KB 317, a B. Mark VII model.
1943
Downsview, Ontario,

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=3365

Although best known for their service with the Royal Air Force, Mosquitoes were also flew in several U.S. Army Air Force units as photographic and weather reconnaissance aircraft and as a night fighter. During the war, the USAAF acquired 40 Canadian Mossies and flew them under the American F-8 (photo reconnaissance) designation. In addition, the British turned over more than 100 Mosquitoes to the USAAF under Reverse Lend-Lease. These aircraft retained their British designations.

 

[mhuxt]

by the time it entered service, targets were few and far between.

Not sure I buy that. Around half of the total claims by Mossies were made after the Allied invasion of Europe.

 

[Erich]

just to add what Mark mentions : German LW Night fighter losses were more in December 1944 than any other month of the war. of course thi is just not P-61's but in most cases falling to BC Mossies, Allied Anti-aircraft placements and crashes of all sorts.

 

[Shortround6]

These same "gentlemen" did purchase Canadian made Mosquito aircraft. Perhaps they could find it in their heart to purchase superior American made F7F aircraft that were originally designed to a USN specification.]

Doesn't matter what was in Their hearts as long as in their heads they knew the F7F wouldn't be ready in time.
Unless you can figure out a way to speed up development (drawing board to prototype flying) by over a year the F7F was not a competiter for the P-61.

 

[Graeme]

P-61 vs B-29. The last air-to-air "kill" of WW2?

 

[carman1877]

After reading several articles and visiting several sites I have come to the conclusion that maybe the Me 262B night fighter could be better than the P-61. It was faster, had more firepower(4 30mm cannons), and an impressive bombload. It could carry (2) 551lbs. bombs under the nose, and (24) R4m fin folding rockets under the wings in wooden racks. The Me-262B night fighter was a tandem seat aircraft designed to train pilots how to fly a jet.

 

[Erich]

Carman

a little correct note for you: the B model of the Me 262 did not carry or was to carry bombs or R4M rockets, only the A-1a and the A-2 for bombs............the B model was designed as a trainer for single seat pilots as well as useage as a NF in Welters small unit later if war had gone one to be widespread throughout the Nachtjagd. The future use of the B model in the B-2 and later models only test board pieces was to removed the under the nose twin fuel tanks and design much larger fuel cells internally, one on either side of the cockpit wit the cockpit canopy to be more streamlined. it was then the intention of Welter and others wishing for the jet under the belts to contact BC bombers on much a wider scale and be able to fly with more productive jet engines the whole of the Reich or at least what was left of it.

the B-1a/U1 even in it's role during 1945 could not compete with the Widow with fuel range the jet was just way too limited even with the twin nose outboard fuel tanks I described.

 

[davebender]

That's like comparing the P-51 with a Me-109 or Spitfire. Long range bomber escort vs short range interceptor.

The Me-262 was king of the sky over Germany where it was designed to operate. However I wonder how good the AI radar was as it had to be squeezed into such a small aircraft.

 

[Erich]

king ? nah don't think it was, useful as a speed demon could not turn on a dime, too short range fuel load

in talking of it's ops at night not much is still known too many myths about Welter and the unit, the facts are construed all over the place. it could of been the higest scoring NF staffel or gruppe had it been enlarged during the war, but still as a nf too experimental, too many bugs and other props and jet jobs were being considered.

the FuG 218 equipped in the twin seater was to be removed for the FuG 240A Berlin AI that was issued in the last months for the Ju 88G-6, the antlers of the Neptun on the jet were already knocking off fuel and speed efficinentcy, the more the streamlined the better as I stated about the upcoming and hopeful B-2 jet.

 

[Milosh]

The Me-262 was king of the sky over Germany where it was designed to operate. However I wonder how good the AI radar was as it had to be squeezed into such a small aircraft.

The FuG 218 was used in the Ju88. The FuG218 in the 262 was planed to be replaced by the FuG224. Guess there was that much trouble installing AI radar in the 262.

edit. I see Erich posted as I was typing up my reply.

 

[davebender]

I doubt that loss of speed was an issue for the Me-262. You could lose 100 mph and still be the fastest object in the night sky.

Fuel consumption is a much more serious matter. Do we have endurance data for the Me-262 night fighter?

 

[Erich]

FuG 224 was not the replacement but a smaller Berlin AI or something in the AI form. Neptun already proven it could be jammed but the twin seaters like the single seaters were on a different mission and that was to seek/destroy LSNF mossie and Mossie intruders. AI was also not considered meaning just to remove the radar sets altogether and even the radar ops position and replace with another internal fuel cell.

and yes speed for the twin seater meant everything, extra internal gear, radr operator and his extra seating, the equipment to go along with him, the radar internal or outter aerials, extra fuel twin tanks external, it all mattered and stressed the thing walled crate to maximum's. a series of things Welter was concerned about and he knew the frontw as against the BC heavy bomber and not the illusive Mossie. the consideration also of the Ar 234B-BN project really interested Welter and he followed it closely during 1945

I will not post any 262 nf data as it is for my volume but simple to say there are many conflicting reports on the twin seater performance issues as it only flew a handful of times in the air

but hey guys we are getting way OT

 

[Watanbe]

If it's fast, has powerful armament, decent range and a good radar set, chances are it will be a successful NF. The Mossie XXX, JU-88 G6 and the P61 had these attributes.

Question for Erich, the radar in the JU-88 was inferior to the US and British equivalents, do you think the JU-88 would have achieved the results it did if there wasn't such a vast amount of targets for it. The answer seems obvious, but what I mean is consider that it had to search and chase its targets more than it did?

 

[Erich]

you must remember that in 45 the FuG 220 series and the Fug 218 Neptun were jammed, yes plenty of targets but how did they find their prey. Flensburg was plugged in 44 but still worn by Ju 88G-6 craft, the only thing going for the LW NF's was if equipped with FuG 350Z Naxos. Otherwse good luck if they could see targets blazing and some sort of action then it was fit to fly in that direction knowing full well that you could be targeted by Mossie intruders

 

[Milosh]

FuG 224 was not the replacement but a smaller Berlin AI or something in the AI form.

Oops,my fat fingers.

 

[Marshall_Stack]

As far as using the F7F instead of the P-61, I think that the P-61C with the uprated engines and use of turbochargers and air brake would have at least made it as good as the F7F. The P-61C would at least have a height advantage.

Attached is the manual for the P-61

 

[drgondog]

As far as using the F7F instead of the P-61, I think that the P-61C with the uprated engines and use of turbochargers and air brake would have at least made it as good as the F7F. The P-61C would at least have a height advantage.

Attached is the manual for the P-61

The P-61C and F7F-2N were about the same top speed but the P-61C was less manueverable and had a slower rate of climb. They both had similar ceilings.

I believe the neither deficiency of the P-61C would have been a factor in 1945 and the simple fact is that neither actually engaged and shot down anything in WWII, whereas the P-61B did a nice job in the PTO.

 

[carman1877]

Carman

the B-1a/U1 even in it's role during 1945 could not compete with the Widow with fuel range the jet was just way too limited even with the twin nose outboard fuel tanks I described.

You are right about the small numbers, but the Me-262B did not need long range becuase it was to defend the area around bases, and they never left germany to my knowledge. But they were advanced for their time.

 

[Erich]

actually the idea behind twin nose tanks was to carry the war to BC command in other words give the 262 twin seater more time aloft, the single seater was just too limited. again the twin seater wa to engage BC bombers not mossies like the single seat 262A-1a. the B was not defending it's bases, actually base in the literal sense. Like I said I am working on a volumes about Welter and his band of interesting folk