Wasn't the P-51 the best escort fighter of the war?

[AlfaKiloSierra]

Agree with the speeds.

Climb is a different story. Climb (and maneuverability) was the Thunderbolt's Achilles heel. The chart you reference is using special fuel not available until the latter half of 1944 after air superiority had already been won in March-April. Those Thunderbolts that helped win air superiority could only climb at something less than 2000fpm at 25000'. This was still a fairly good rate of climb at that altitude but nowhere near the Mustang's 2500fpm. And at lower altitudes the climb rate was only around 2700fpm.

Most range maps give the P-47 a combat radius in Europe of 375-425 miles with a 110gallon drop tank after Feb '44. Prior to that only a 75 gallon drop tank was available from August '43 and absolutely no provision for any drop tank at all between combat debut in May '43 and August. Even with the 110gallon drop tank the 425 mile combat radius was still 100-150mi short of Berlin. This can be verified by the figures in the pilot's manual which indicate a 190 gallon per hour fuel usage at 25000' for normal (max continuous) and 95gph for most economical cruise. Carrying 305 gallons internally and 110 gallons in the drop tank less 45 gallons reserve for warmup, takeoff and climb to 5000' results in 370 gallons available for the mission. Deduct another 124 gallon reserve (92 combat and 32 landing) and now only 246 gallons is available. A 400 mile radius means an 800 mile mission at 285mph TAS means a 2.8 hour mission. 246 available gallons divided by 2.8 hours indicates 88 gallons per hour which is below the 95 gallons per hour in the pilot's manual. So the 400 mile combat radius was a very closely run thing. And well short of the P-51B/C.

So, the P-51B/C is about the same speed, much better climb and much better endurance than the P-47s that were available during the critical first half of 1944. And more maneuverable. Hope this helps.

The P-51 I used in the comparison uses 75" boost, requiring the same fuel.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

That chart illustrates the difficulty of precision daylight bombing over norther Europe.

Slightly less than 20% of bombs, by weight, in that chart were dropped using purely visual aiming. Just under 60% were dropped using instruments.

"Precision" bombing was difficult over Japan as well. That's why they switched to night area bombing.

 

[gjs238]

A new thread with the same topic could have been started instead of resurrecting an old thread.

Sometimes when that happens some of the first responses are - been there, done that, do a search before posting a new thread.

 

[gjs238]

That P-47N was fast and could go a long way. The tests of 9/27/46 show top speed only 423mph but climb was dismal at 1700 feet per minute at 20000'. A P-51B would climb at 2750fpm at 26000'.
Didn't really matter, even if the -N got into combat in September '44, it had missed the brunt of the war. Air superiority over Europe was attained in Feb/March 1944. The Pacific saw the Great Marianas Turkey shoot in June of '44. Proof that the Japanese were pretty much done in the air. After that there was a lot of ground attack in Europe and in the Pacific the B-29s went to low altitude night bombing in early '45.
If we compare planes we should compare those in service at the same time. Otherwise we're comparing SPADs to F-22s.

Could the Allison powered Mustangs have escorted the B-29's at the altitudes they were flying?

 

[gjs238]

I read a quite favorable discription of the P47Ns cockpit by a pilot that flew them out of Le Shima. Good heat and ventilation, a cup holder right by some kind of ventalation port( said it kept his soda cold) lots of room, auto pilot as we already mentioned,and the seat sounded like it was just this side of a barka lounger.
Sounded like the only thing that could have made it more comfortable would be a toaster oven and a mini-bar.
Maybe those were comming in the next variant but the war ended before Republic could get the toaster oven and mini- bar equipped version into production

Can't find the source now, but I thought the oven and bar required an upgraded wiring harness so the War Production Board put the kibosh on that.

 

[gjs238]

It was a fantastic fighter. One that was developed far too late to make a significant difference to the war effort in any meaningful way. Had it been available in August of 1943, IMO it would have been perhaps the most important fighter of the war. As it stands, it's sorta like the ME-262. A fantastic, groundbreaking aircraft-available in too few numbers and too late in the war to make a significant difference.

Right, but you can say the same of many aircraft.
What if the P-51 had entered service a year earlier?

 

[gjs238]

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[gjs238]

Most of our aircraft were designed for something particular, but used in so many other venues it's mind boggling. Do you think the designers of the B25 ever thought it would fly from the deck of a carrier or carry a 75mm cannon?
Cheers,
Biff

Reminds me of the phrase, "Not a pound for air to ground."
But look what future versions of that ship are doing today.

 

[gjs238]

OP asked "best escort fighter".
Everybody pounded facts.
Something only glanced at: the cost of the planes. Pilots might not care, Bomber drivers might, so here's the gist:

P-51: $50,985 in 1945
P-47: $85,000 in 1945
P-38: $97,147 in 1944

So: Do you want 100 P-38's, 110 P-47's, or 200 P-51's?

Doubt the quantities are cost driven, not for the USA anyway.
If the US wanted 200 P-38's or P-47's, they would pay for it.
Other factors limited the availability of each.

 

[P-39 Expert]

Could the Allison powered Mustangs have escorted the B-29's at the altitudes they were flying?

The P-51A even with the uprated 9.6 geared engines had a combat ceiling (1000fpm) of 27500' and I believe the B-29s operated above that? This was without the mandatory external tanks and internal fuel was only 180 gallons (the 85 gallon fuselage tank had not been added yet). P-51A was out of production by October '42 anyway and B-29s only began operations from China in April '44.

 

[drgondog]

The P-51A even with the uprated 9.6 geared engines had a combat ceiling (1000fpm) of 27500' and I believe the B-29s operated above that? This was without the mandatory external tanks and internal fuel was only 180 gallons (the 85 gallon fuselage tank had not been added yet). P-51A was out of production by October '42 anyway and B-29s only began operations from China in April '44.

The Service Ceiling of the P-51A was 34k. That said it would not be first choice to escort B-29s except for range.

 

[P-39 Expert]

The Service Ceiling of the P-51A was 34k. That said it would not be first choice to escort B-29s except for range.

Combat ceiling was considered by the British to be that altitude where the plane would no longer climb at at least 1000fpm. Climbs over that altitude were considered too slow/risky for combat. Vertical speed at 1000fpm is only about 11mph.

 

[fubar57]

Though I'm more inclined to believe Bill....P-51 Mustang Specifications - MustangsMustangs.com

 

[P-39 Expert]

Though I'm more inclined to believe Bill....P-51 Mustang Specifications - MustangsMustangs.com

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View attachment 578954​

Combat ceiling by definition is lower than service ceiling. Who is Bill?

 

[fubar57]

Someone who knows about Mustangs....I think he wrote an article or two about the P-51

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Combat ceiling by definition is lower than service ceiling. Who is Bill?

Bill is our resident P-51 expert. His father flew the P-51 in combat during WW2. Him and has father owned one as well for a while (correct me if I am wrong Bill), so he himself even has some time in the bird. He has also dedicated a good portion of his life to studying the 51, and its squadrons. He had written several books on it, and just released one.

He deals only in facts, and is a great resource.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Who is Bill?

 

[BiffF15]

View attachment 578969

Will be released on 23 June 2020 on Amazon.com.

This has been a public service announcement.

Carry on.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[pbehn]

Bill is our resident P-51 expert. His father flew the P-51 in combat during WW2. .

Well you could say that.




One of greatest quarterbacks in Texas High School history, Texas Hall of Fame in 1971, Collier's All American at Vanderbilt University 1938.

Shot down his first German aircraft on his first day of Combat June 6, 1944. Shortest time from first air victory credit to five (ace) in the 355th FG. Promoted from pilot, to Flight leader to Squadron Operations officer in 10 days, Squadron CO in 55 days, Group Air Executive in 137 days

Forced down north of Paris in August 1944. Rescued by Capt. Royce Priest, who landed, the two of them riding home in a single-seater Mustang. Crashed into channel in P-51

Polish Cross of Valor/ Silver Star/ DFC w/ 2 Oak Leaf Cluster/ AM w/ 12 Oak Leaf Cluster/Croix de Guerre with Palm

 

[P-39 Expert]

Well you could say that.




One of greatest quarterbacks in Texas High School history, Texas Hall of Fame in 1971, Collier's All American at Vanderbilt University 1938.

Shot down his first German aircraft on his first day of Combat June 6, 1944. Shortest time from first air victory credit to five (ace) in the 355th FG. Promoted from pilot, to Flight leader to Squadron Operations officer in 10 days, Squadron CO in 55 days, Group Air Executive in 137 days

Forced down north of Paris in August 1944. Rescued by Capt. Royce Priest, who landed, the two of them riding home in a single-seater Mustang. Crashed into channel in P-51

Polish Cross of Valor/ Silver Star/ DFC w/ 2 Oak Leaf Cluster/ AM w/ 12 Oak Leaf Cluster/Croix de Guerre with Palm

Hi Bill.