DarrenW
Staff Sergeant
Excellent stuff as always Bill. Thanks for spelling everything out for me in plain and simple terms.
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I don't have time to finish the video in one sitting - but here are my thoughts:
There was a bomber mafia, General Arnold was part of it but he was a Skeptic that the 'bomber would also get through' beginning with the intelligence reports filtering in as early as the war in Spain. The Pursuit aircraft obviously had the upper hand. In 1939 Arnold appointed the Emmons Board to evaluate priorities for AAC Development. They came back with an escort fighter with 1500 mi range as no. 4 but he re-assigned the escort fighter as no. 1. The issue wasn't that thinking wasn't evolving - it was deemed impossible unless a twin engine fighter - and worthless as a T/E against much smaller and maneuverability of a single engine fighter.
Materiel Command got stuck on two technical issues - a.) wedded to turbo-supercharged engines for high altitude, b.) refusal to expend research dollars to develop a 2s/2stage in-line engine. AAF-MC was central to barring the external fuel tank for combat purposes but the 1942 Arnold Conference set two high complimentary objectives for fighter escort development - a.) External self-sealing combat tanks, and b.) forcing increases to internal fuel supply. It took a long time for MC to lead development of the self sealing tank - the first 75 gal externals didn't reach 8th AF until August 1943.
Re: the P-47 range issues: I will spend more time viewing the P-47 video, but the leading variable to get you home is how much internal fuel you have remaining when you quit fighting and turn for home. The R-2800 was far more of a gas hog than either the P-51 or the P-38 . Consider that the MAXIMUM fuel available if you could take off, climb and cruise on externals
P-47D through -23 = 305 gal
P-38 through J-10 = 300 gal, the 410gal for the P-38J-15 and subs. 210gal per engine.
P-51B w/85 gal fuse tank = 269gal = 269 gal per engine.
The total Parasite drag of the Mustang was 2/3 of the P-47/P-38
On a time phased comparison the P-47C/D with only 305g internal fuel had a Combat radius (including 20 minutes of military and 20 MP/5 combat power with WI) of 125mi.
The Mustang on 184 gal = 150mi (no internal 85 gal fuse tank)
P38 on 300 gal = 130 mi.
The 200 gal ferry tank was extremely draggy and unpressurized above 18000 feet, (reducing useful fuel to approximately 100 gallons).. it was used briefly in July 1943/Aug 1943 and extended range to approx 200 mi; with the 75 gal pressurized low drag tank = 230mi; with 1x108gal =275mi; with 1x150 =300 mi; with 2x150gal =425mi. The latter config available to only field modified P-47Ds or factor P-47D-16bthrough-23. Approximately April 1944.
The Combat radius straight line from Duxford to Berlin was approx 510mi.
By contrast the P-51B with internal 85 gal fuse tank plus 2x75 gal external tanks - 705 mi. Approximately late February 1944.
Darren - the number one bottleneck was the inability of AAF-MC to conceive of the feasibility of the powerful two stage/two speed supercharged engine in the late 1930's. There is evidence that Allison solicited funds from GM and were turned down primarily because the AAF would not guarantee R&D funding. Fortunately R-R had no such inhibitions.Excellent stuff as always Bill. Thanks for spelling everything out for me in plain and simple terms.
Hi nuuumannn,Hm, a couple of things with that entry you've copied there, Nevada - nothing you've done of course; firstly, that's not a P-51, it's a Mustang I and I'm willing to bet that wasn't taken in 1944, more like late 1941 early 1942. The background is fake, and the Mustang has half of its elevator surface area, and its rotating propellers are painted on!
It is NA-73 Mustang I AG348 with short carb scoop. The carb scoop was changed and AG348 was shipped to UK via panama canal approx. July 1941.An excellent thread all the way through. My personal feeling is that yes, the Mustang was the preeminent escort fighter of the war. While late war aircraft such as the P-47N might have eclipsed the Mustang in performance their introduction were too late to affect the course of the war the way the Mustang did. This has all been stated by others earlier. I also wanted to share the attached image which popped up on my FB feed yesterday. Seemed timely to this conversation. Unfortunately, the image has a couple issues....
View attachment 583672
Your theory also does not explain how or why the fighter groups equipped with Mustangs ran up such large kill to loss ratios
Was the opposition (both Luftwaffe and Japan) diminished by the time the Merlin Mustang got into combat? Sure.It fought against obsolete and or poorly manufactured planes in both Europe and in the Pacific flown by pilots with minimal flight hours and experience, you could argue many German/Japanese pilots flying from 1944 were nothing but cannon fodder. The P 51 was the best escort fighter of the war in my opinion but only because it made good use of the situation it found itself in, nothing more.
Only because the P-51 was not there yet in '43 and in vastly fewer numbers in early '44. Mustang was better, just as fast and much better climb. And you weren't going to Berlin in a Thunderbolt.Like the Panther tank on the ground the P-51 was the best mix of desired combat abilities for a fighter aircraft.
But in my opinion the credit for depleting the Luftwaffe by killing lots of experienced pilots during the critical phase of late 43 to early 44 goes to the P-47.
Theoretically, you could get to Berlin in a late model P-47D with teardrop canopy, but you needed both underwing and fuselage drop tanks and the Jug was a real gas guzzler. It was better to use the Mustang.Only because the P-51 was not there yet in '43 and in vastly fewer numbers in early '44. Mustang was better, just as fast and much better climb. And you weren't going to Berlin in a Thunderbolt.
Nice try but the thesis that 2TAF pushed the "depleted Luftwaffe back across the continent", is badly flawed. LuftFlotte 3 was the sword that was assigned and defended defense of the Kanalfront and was never pushed out until France was over run. Lwbh Mitte, then LuftFlotte Reich was the large unit with the rest of the western defense of Germany forces primarily from German Border east and north and south of Germany.I'm going to be the devils advocate and say the only reason the P51 could fly long range escort missions was because the Spitfires Typhoons and Tempests of the 2TAF and Thunderbolts of the US Eighth AF pushed the depleted remnants of the Luftwaffe back across the European continent to the point that venturing outside the German border was impossible, Galland I believe said that exact thing. In the Pacific the same, the Japanese were in an even worst situation having neither the planes nor pilots or command or control to mount anything in the way of an organised defense, having a storm responsible for the P51's worst loss's backs that up. As much as I admire the P 51 it was the glamour girl of the war, every book video or movie of the air war in WW2 shows ''D'' series 'stangs with twin drop tanks flying across Europe blasting Fw's and Me's out of the sky, that could only happen because of the four years of heavy lifting by other Allied aircraft
I always love a good contrarian argument. You are correct, the Mustang is one of the glamour girls of the war, just as the spitfire, mosquito, lancaster, b-17, thunderbolt and a couple others hold mythic status. Did the Mustang arrive a little later in the war than the P-47 and Spitfire? Without a doubt. That doesn't change the fact that it was the best escort fighter of the war on the simple fact that the Mustang took the fight where the other fighters couldn't. Since a lot of credence is given to Eric Brown on such issues here are his thoughts on the Mustang:I'm going to be the devils advocate and say the only reason the P51 could fly long range escort missions was because the Spitfires Typhoons and Tempests of the 2TAF and Thunderbolts of the US Eighth AF pushed the depleted remnants of the Luftwaffe back across the European continent to the point that venturing outside the German border was impossible, Galland I believe said that exact thing. In the Pacific the same, the Japanese were in an even worst situation having neither the planes nor pilots or command or control to mount anything in the way of an organised defense, having a storm responsible for the P51's worst loss's backs that up. As much as I admire the P 51 it was the glamour girl of the war, every book video or movie of the air war in WW2 shows ''D'' series 'stangs with twin drop tanks flying across Europe blasting Fw's and Me's out of the sky, that could only happen because of the four years of heavy lifting by other Allied aircraft
On an aviation forum it is very easy to make aviation the air battles the most important. In fact it was a military conflict, the allies used their air power to ensure that the war on the ground and on the sea was won. A large part was destroying the LW as much as possible on the air and the ground, but there were other parts, attacking oil supplies, the "transport plan", destroying defences in Normandy and destroying more defences away from Normandy so that Normandy wasn't seen as the obvious landing place. The problem for the LW was it wasn't a question P-51 or P-47 or even P-38 and Typhoon/Tempest because they had all of them to contend with. Some units re equipped with P-51s but others re equipped with longer range p-47s and some switched role to ground attack. I recently posted the history from Wiki of LW airfields in Belgium and Netherlands, few were hit by major raids by "heavies" but there were many attacks by P-47s initially fighters shooting them up on the way home then later as fighter bombers or escorting less glamorous raids with medium bombers. There is no doubt in my mind that the P-51 was the best long range escort, and so was best at forcing the LW into the air or hitting it on the ground, but all others played a part.I'm going to be the devils advocate and say the only reason the P51 could fly long range escort missions was because the Spitfires Typhoons and Tempests of the 2TAF and Thunderbolts of the US Eighth AF pushed the depleted remnants of the Luftwaffe back across the European continent to the point that venturing outside the German border was impossible, Galland I believe said that exact thing. In the Pacific the same, the Japanese were in an even worst situation having neither the planes nor pilots or command or control to mount anything in the way of an organised defense, having a storm responsible for the P51's worst loss's backs that up. As much as I admire the P 51 it was the glamour girl of the war, every book video or movie of the air war in WW2 shows ''D'' series 'stangs with twin drop tanks flying across Europe blasting Fw's and Me's out of the sky, that could only happen because of the four years of heavy lifting by other Allied aircraft
Nice try but the thesis that 2TAF pushed the "depleted Luftwaffe back across the continent", is badly flawed. LuftFlotte 3 was the sword that was assigned and defended defense of the Kanalfront and was never pushed out until France was over run. Lwbh Mitte, then LuftFlotte Reich was the large unit with the rest of the western defense of Germany forces primarily from German Border east and north and south of Germany.
Only because the P-51 was not there yet in '43 and in vastly fewer numbers in early '44. Mustang was better, just as fast and much better climb. And you weren't going to Berlin in a Thunderbolt.