Westland Whirlwind revisited

fastmongrel · Oct 22, 2019

Admiral Beez said:
We can't add Merlins without costly changes. But with the Peregrine giving issues, was a return to the Kestrel ever considered? Add a supercharger? Rolls-Royce Kestrel - Wikipedia

The RR Peregrine was not giving issues (whatever that means) apart from the usual problems caused by a new engine. With practically zero development because of the understandable concentration on the RR Merlin the 305 Peregrines built lasted in service till late 1943. The only changes I know of were to allow 100 Octane fuel and +12lbs boost.

tomo pauk · Oct 22, 2019

fastmongrel said:
The RR Peregrine was not giving issues (whatever that means) apart from the usual problems caused by a new engine. With practically zero development because of the understandable concentration on the RR Merlin the 305 Peregrines built lasted in service till late 1943.

+1 on this.

The only changes I know of were to allow 100 Octane fuel and +12lbs boost.

Peregrine was allowed to +9 psi boost with 100 oct fuel, both for combat and take off.
Pilot's notes The Whirlwinnd I

Shortround6 · Oct 22, 2019

The Whirlwind could have taken belts of 110-120 per gun. There were two different nose set ups built (but only one flown?) with the larger ammo capacity. Unfortunately the set ups were pneumatic powered magazines and not belts and did not work as claimed. By this time the Whirlwind was canceled and further developments were a very low priority.
No need for belts under the pilot.

BTW, Kestrels came with and without superchargers but reverting to a Kestrel even with a supercharger means over 100 hp less per engine.

stona · Oct 22, 2019

fastmongrel said:
The RR Peregrine was not giving issues (whatever that means) apart from the usual problems caused by a new engine. With practically zero development because of the understandable concentration on the RR Merlin the 305 Peregrines built lasted in service till late 1943. The only changes I know of were to allow 100 Octane fuel and +12lbs boost.

The problem for the Whirlwind was that when the first production Peregrine was delivered in February 1940 the decision had already been made to cease production after 290 units. To all intents, the Whirlwind was doomed from that point on.

Anything else is just wishful thinking.

I think that the intractable problem of fitting the Merlin, with its up draught carburettor, have already been covered. Machine guns are a bit of a non starter for an aircraft designed to lift cannon! That is not how the Air Ministry worked.

Cheers

Steve

Admiral Beez · Oct 22, 2019

stona said:
Anything else is just wishful thinking.

Time to double down on wishful thinking. Let's have a naval Whirlwind. We've got high landing speed, long take-off runs and short endurance issues to address, for starters. Ark Royal and Illustrious class lifts are likely too narrow, but wings need to fold to fit down Indomitable and Courageous types.

Admiral Beez · Oct 23, 2019

Whirlwind with radials would address availability issues of the Peregrine while not tying up Merlins needed for the Spitfire, Hurricanes, etc.

The closest to the Whirlwind I see is the IMAM Ro.57, showing what a Whirlwind with radials would look like.

With radials, you can omit the radiators and streamline the leading edge. Plus you can add fuel where the rads were, see below.

Put some Townend rings or NACA cowls over the radial engine and we'll still have a streamlined bird.

stona · Oct 23, 2019

Seems like a lot of work when you already have a Beaufighter.

Just saying

pinsog · Oct 23, 2019

stona said:
Seems like a lot of work when you already have a Beaufighter.

Just saying

Beaufighter was more of a light/medium bomber than 'fighter', it was much bigger than a P38. The radial engine Whirlwind would have been like an F5F Skyrocket. Same basic size as a single engine fighter.

stona · Oct 23, 2019

pinsog said:
Beaufighter was more of a light/medium bomber than 'fighter', it was much bigger than a P38. The radial engine Whirlwind would have been like an F5F Skyrocket. Same basic size as a single engine fighter.

Yes, and it fulfilled a lot of roles that a Whirlwind, whatever engines were bolted on to it, could not. The Whirlwind was far too small and a bit of a one trick pony, shades of the Fw 187 here.

The last thing the British needed was a T/E interceptor when they had the Spitfire and Hurricane and were expecting the Tornado. Twins were expensive and used a lot of valuable resources.

Admiral Beez · Oct 23, 2019

stona said:
Seems like a lot of work when you already have a Beaufighter.

Just saying

Beaufighters in Malaya would have been something. Nearly as fast or faster than the IJAAF's two primary fighters the Ki-43 and Ki-27, the Beaufighter's heavy forward armament would have been ideal for attacking IJN troop convoys.

fastmongrel · Oct 23, 2019

tomo pauk said:
Peregrine was allowed to +9 psi boost with 100 oct fuel, both for combat and take off.
Pilot's notes The Whirlwinnd I

Your right I dont know where I got +12psi from

Kevin J · Oct 24, 2019

I have better idea, cleanup the Hurricane so that a IIa does 355 mph at 22000 ft.

Admiral Beez · Oct 24, 2019

Kevin J said:
I have better idea, cleanup the Hurricane so that a IIa does 355 mph at 22000 ft.

Better off building the Merlin-powered P-40F than trying to get more speed out of the Hurricane.

Kevin J · Oct 24, 2019

Admiral Beez said:
Better off building the Merlin-powered P-40F than trying to get more speed out of the Hurricane.

That's what almost happened, except only the Sea Hurricane got cleaned up. As for the Whirlwind, discontinue production.

Admiral Beez · Oct 24, 2019

Agreed, stop production of the Whirlwind. But send all 100+ produced to late 1941 to Malaya to bolster the Buffaloes. It won't turn the coming loss to Japan, but it will give the Whirlwind a chance to shine.

Kevin J · Oct 24, 2019

Admiral Beez said:
Agreed, stop production of the Whirlwind. But send all 100+ produced to late 1941 to Malaya to bolster the Buffaloes. It won't turn the coming loss to Japan, but it will give the Whirlwind a chance to shine.

The Whirlwind was shining defending the South West Approaches to the English Channel. If there was to be another fighter sent to Malaya and the Straits Settlements, my choice would be the Mohawk IV.

stona · Oct 24, 2019

There were serious reliability and serviceability issues with the Whirlwind. It's one of the reasons it was sent to SW England, Westland was based at Yeovil.

Sending the type anywhere abroad, let alone to the Far East, would have been ridiculous.

I'm not sure how well the South West Approaches needed the Whirlwind. In May 1941 they flew 81 convoy patrols and 22 others, a total of 210 sorties without once meeting the enemy!
The Whirlwind did better in late 1941, and later, making low level attacks on Luftwaffe airfields and other targets.

Let's not forget that there were only ever two squadrons (Nos.263 and 137) operating the Whirlwind and that neither routinely had a double figure number of aircraft serviceable on any given day. I've read both squadron's ORBs.

Cheers

Steve

tomo pauk · Oct 24, 2019

Kevin J said:
That's what almost happened, except only the Sea Hurricane got cleaned up.

Care to elaborate a bit about that?

Admiral Beez · Oct 24, 2019

Kevin J said:
That's what almost happened, except only the Sea Hurricane got cleaned up.

A FAA P-40 with folding wings and Merlin engine would have been something.

Capt. Vick · Oct 24, 2019

Nah, the Admiralty would demand a 2nd crewman.

Westland Whirlwind revisited

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