What are you going to cancel to make the engines available?
Westland Whirlwind revisited
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What are you going to cancel to make the engines available?
Kevin J
Banned
The Sea Hurricane IIc did 342 mph as per the hurricane IIa including arrester hook.
Admiral Beez
Major
Well, the Merlins that were going to the Sea Hurricanes will insead go into the P-40s.
And there are several aircraft that do not deserve their Merlins.
1,064 x Boulton Paul Defiants produced from 1939-1942
2,201 x Fairey Battles produced from 1937 - 1940
202 x Hawker Henleys produced from 1938 - 1939
Kill Defiant production in late 1940 and that frees up some engines, if needed.
Kevin J
Banned
We needs the Defiants as night fighters during the Blitz. Battle and Henley production is over by the time the P-40 comes along.
Kevin J
Banned
Which means the two seat P-40 is a Helldiver.Nah, the Admiralty would demand a 2nd crewman.
- Thread starter
- #226
And a 1000+ worth of Battles, from late 1939 on.
How many kills were made by NF Defiants during the Blitz?
Kevin J
Banned
More than any other fighter. You'd need to research it.
Admiral Beez
Major
I included the Battle in the list, and any Defiant cancellations will be after the Blitz, as I wrote above.
But really, we don't need to cancel anything to get the Merlins for any P-40 replacement for the FAA Hurricanes. It's a 1 for 1 swap.
Anything before 1940 is not relevant.
What do you intend to use as a night fighter in 1940-41 after you have cancelled the Defiant?
The number one cause of shortfalls in production, throughout the war, was modifications in series production. It's why, for example, the Lancaster never got a bigger escape hatch. A major modification of the P-40 was NEVER going to happen. It would not have happened to the P-51 if the Americans had not been on board.
The Defiant was also used as an ASR aircraft, target tug and even in the radar jamming role. 515 Squadron operated at least nine Defiants fitted with 'Moonshine' or 'Mandrel' radar jamming equipment in support of USAAF 8th Air Force daylight bombing raids on Germany between May 1942 and July 1943. These might not be glamorous roles, but they are vitally important.
I love it when people try to out think the people there at the time, the people who won the war
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Admiral Beez
Major
Why are you here if not to peel the onion on the aircraft and consider the decisions that make them? And some of the best aircraft were designed, funded and built by people who lost the war.
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- Thread starter
- #231
Do I? 30 seconds worth of googling yileds this, from here:
Successful claimed interceptions took place, such as two He 111s being claimed on 15/16 September; the first confirmed kill by Defiant of the squadron was made on 22 December, of a single He 111.
So we have one confirmed kill in all 1940? How much confirmed kills were made by Blenheims and Beaufighters in 1940? Zero?
- Thread starter
- #232
I love it when people try to out think the people there at the time, the people who won the war
Let's not pretend that people that won the war get it right every time, nor that their actions are above critical assesment, nor that everyone on the Allied side out-smarted it's opposite number anyone on the Axis side, for any timeframe we choose to analyze stuff.
Did it really made 342 mph? Or you want me to research it for you?
Admiral Beez
Major
IMO, he's not asking you because he wants to know, but instead wants to shut you down.
Is there an Ignore function here? EDIT, yes there is. Bonus.
- Thread starter
- #234
No worries.
I'm not pretending that they did, but they did have a LOT more information to base their decisions on than we have today.
According to the RAF a Hurricane II with Merlin XX had a top speed of 340 mph at 21,000 feet.
- Thread starter
- #236
I'm afraid that we have far more information about not just what worked and what did not, from wepons to battle plans, but also what the enemy was up to.
Thank you.
What we don't have, or only have an incomplete picture of, is all the things that influenced production decisions. RAF requirements were just one of many, and not always the primary factor. Although much government and RAF documentation has survived (and that can be difficult to find as anyone who has spent time in TNA will testify) an awful lot of company documentation has been lost forever. We tend to get a one sided view of things, from the top down and not the other way.
It is very easy to say, 'Let's put a Merlin in a P-40' but the practicality of doing something like that, in the middle of a war, is something rather different.
Not every decision taken was the correct one, but the British in particular made a lot of correct decisions. Alec Cairncross' 'Planning in Wartime' gives an insight into how decisions were made at the MAP.
I'm interested in history, not 'what iffery', which is basically opinion, not fact, and a waste of my time.
Everything I have written in this thread is a matter of record, historical fact.
Sarcasm
There were 1786 built but only one squadron used them on covert missions into occupied Europe and even then that squadron was not exclusively equipped with Lyanders.
Large numbers wound up as target tugs.
They were actually fighting Italian aircraft with Lysanders in the early days in North Africa., and also using them as (very) light bombers. Didn't do all that well though not terrible either- some of the early Italian planes were pretty durfy too. But you wouldn't want to be in a Lysander that got jumped by a CR 32 let alone a CR 42.
Sometimes either the aircraft producers were too good salesmen, or the costumers (air ministries of the countries) tended to believe some of their promises too much, or both. Like Bell trumpeting 400 mph for the non-turbo armed P-39, while that was out of capability for turboed and unarmed XP 39. Or wanting the Lightning to do 400 mph without turbos, on engines to be discontinued, same rotation, bad exhaust intake system. Beaufighter was promised to make 370 mph, Typhoon 450 mph? - sure makes easier to cancel the Whirly and to skip the Gloster F.9/37.
The Gloster twin should be a better airframe for Merlins and as night-fighter than Whirly (without major modifications), being bigger.
Germans expected great things from He 177, Ju 288, Me 210/410, that did not pan out. Soviets have had problems with serial produced examples emulating performance figures of prototypes - fault of factories, rather than design bureaus? Guess Soviet designers were rather careful what to propose, consequences for failure were not comforting
Whereas de Havilland produced the Mossie prototype in 11 months from scratch, it's first operation in RAF service 11 months later, and its max speed within 1 mph of Clarkson estimate..
But of course that was originally a private venture that the MoS kept insisting they didn't want .. till Boscombe Down told them it was indeed faster than the current Spitfire.
As for the rather lovely Whirlwind it was ny most accounts RRs refusal to countenance any further development, support or production of the (equally lovely) Peregrine that was the major driver for cancellation. Read Lord Hives' biography.
...it had to be Merlin Merlin Merlin 'at that time'
