What aircraft (any side) would you develope further

[Snautzer01]

How about
I present my MesserStang

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Is that true? The Germans were going to convert their 109 into a P-51 Mustang crossbreed?

 

[kool kitty89]

Well here's my sourse wikipedia:
"In 1940, the British Direct Purchase Commission in the US was looking for combat aircraft; they ordered 675 of the export version Bell Model 14 as the "Caribou" on the strength of the company's representations on 13 April 1940. The performance of the Bell P-39 prototype and 13 test aircraft which were able to achieve a speed of 390 mph (630 km/h) at altitude was due to the installation of turbo-supercharging. The British armament was 0.50-inch machine guns in the fuselage, and four 0.30-inch machine guns in the wings, the 37 mm gun was replaced by a 20 mm Hispano Suiza." so I guess I missread, they are just refering to the prototype's turbo; still I think leaving the turbo in would have been a much smarter decesion, as they could have simply omitted it or traded it for a supercharger for export.

I think Heinkel's 280 would have been quite good, had the German officials taken a keener intrest and more intrest in the 178 testbed or jets in general, but they were unswayed intill the 280-190 mock dogfight. (I also think the HeS-8 and 30 shouldn't have been dropped as they were far lighter and more compact than the 003 or 004 and seemed to be less problematic than the 003 these engines would have also probably given the Me 262 better performance, espesialy roll due to the decreased length.
The US's L113 with its twin L-1000 axial flow jets and was in development in late 1939 could have been somthing had the USAAF taken intrest, but like the Germans it came at a time when reliable, conservative designs were preferable and it was hard enough to push designs like the P-38.

Symmilar reasons doomed the P-59 as a usable fighter as the government limeted Bell's use of wind tunnels, as well as settin an 8 month deadline for the first prototype, and even when they did manage to gain acess it was only to low-speed tunnels. Effectively elimonating Bell's abillity to streamline the aircraft and better configure engine placement. As it was the P-59B had 2 uprated 2000 lb. st. J31-GE-5 turbojets(giving the craft a thrust to weight ratio of .36) and a maximum range of 950mi, as well as a decent armament (actualy symilar to the airacobra's), but the aerodunamic peoblems and the huge 45ft wings limited the plane to just 413mph. If properly developed from the start the airacomet probably could have broken 500mph and maby outperformed the F3 meteor. It did set a new unofficial altitude record of 14,512 m (47,600 ft) thanks to its otherwise hindering oversized wings, positively the high altitude allowed the engeneers to duagnose some engine problems that would have otherwise gone uncorected intill the XP-80 was tested.
I'n not sure why bell didn't base their design around the airacobra, all you'd really have to do is alter the wings and tail to accomadate the engines and exaust, pluss it already had the necessary tricycle undercarage, there could be increased nose-mointed weapons, and the engine cavity could be filled with a fuel tank.Pluss the engines could have been mounted above the wing, retaining the low wings. Though with the mid-mounted bubble cockpit, wing-mounted engines, and pointed nose it might look a tad like a scaled-down Me 262... creepy!

Also as for crash landing dangers: from wikipedia:
" Its unusual engine location, and the driveshaft, caused some pilot concern at first, but experience showed this was no more of a hazard in a crash landing than with an engine located forward of the cockpit, while there were no problems with propshaft failure."

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Is that true? The Germans were going to convert their 109 into a P-51 Mustang crossbreed?

No the Bf 109G-14 was the last varient of the G and it was a normal Bf 109. The varient also included the Bf 109G-14/AS. There were several thousand G-14s built.

His Messerstang is an artist rendering.

 

[Snautzer01]

No the Bf 109G-14 was the last varient of the G and it was a normal Bf 109. The varient also included the Bf 109G-14/AS. There were several thousand G-14s built.

His Messerstang is an artist rendering.

I confess, i made that one.

But its not that strange considering the DB engine in a Spitfire wich was realley done.
How about fixing the view in the 109?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Interesting none the less, but I still dont like it. To me it takes away from the menacing look of the Bf 109 that I like.

 

[Snautzer01]

How about fitting a B-17 with jet engines?

Only jet engines would be too difficult ( in rl) but this should be feasible

B-17 with Rolls-Royce Derwent I turbojets with 8.83 kN (900 kgp / 2,000 lbf) thrust each.

 

[Snautzer01]

Interesting none the less, but I still dont like it. To me it takes away from the menacing look of the Bf 109 that I like.

I agree. this is a bit better i think

Malcolm nine

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Nope not for me. I like the Bf 109 the way it is.

 

[Konigstiger205]

I would modify my country's I.A.R. 81 and replace the 7.92 mm FN machine guns with 13 mm MG 131 from the Bf109 and perhaps mount a 30 mm Mk108 cannon in the nose but for that probably would have to take out the 20 mm MG 151/20 from the wings...

 

[Marshall_Stack]

I would modify my country's I.A.R. 81 and replace the 7.92 mm FN machine guns with 13 mm MG 131 from the Bf109 and perhaps mount a 30 mm Mk108 cannon in the nose but for that probably would have to take out the 20 mm MG 151/20 from the wings...

How about a more powerful engine?

 

[drgondog]

Also, what would you introduce earlier? I would give the P40 Q a chance, (as is well known by most), give the Dautless a 2000 hp engine and two 20mm's in the wings along with normal armament. Hurricane could have used a bigger engine, and for the sake of being laughed at, a bubble canopy. Then the Miles M20 (21?), a good fighter that showed up early on with a bubble canopy, possibly 12.7mm guns in lieu of the 7.7mms, or a combination of 7.7mm and 20mm.

I would take a different slant on the 'What if" design or production considerations.

1. What if the F4U had also been purchased by the USAAF - the 8th AF would have had a longer range, more maneuverable escort fighter much earlier in the war.

2. What if the Spit had been blessed with more internal/external fuel much earlier to enable long range escort in daylight - or long range sweeps deep into Germany.

3. What if the Fw190D had been pushed much faster, or the Me262 been fitted w/twin DB603s until the jet engine problems solved (with the same super clean airframe.)

4. What if the prototype P-38 had not been destroyed and survived long enough to give Lockheed clues to compressibility issues/solutions two years earlier?

5. What if the idiots that stipulated that the He 177 be capable of dive bombing and/or stipulated a two nacelle design had died of a heart attack before then.

6. What if the original Mustang had been designed around the Rolls rather than Allison from the very beginning?

All these would have greatly influenced tactical doctines in 1943-1944

 

[kool kitty89]

Well there's also the Me-209II which was canceled due to slow development and was outperformed by the Fw-190.

There's also the Me-309 but, though it was ready before the 209II, it was still not up to par with the Fw-190 and had poorer manuverabillity than the Bf-109.

 

[Marshall_Stack]

I would take a different slant on the 'What if" design or production considerations.

1. What if the F4U had also been purchased by the USAAF - the 8th AF would have had a longer range, more maneuverable escort fighter much earlier in the war.



I have wondered the same thing. But would the lack of a turbosupercharger (which the P-47 had) hinders its performance in the high altitude battles over Europe?

 

[Marcel]

Fokker G.I (surprise ) with RR Merlin engines. Would have put it on par with the mossie in versatility and maybe speed. I heard Fokker wanted to do this, but the dutch government chose fless powerfull engines.

 

[drgondog]

I would take a different slant on the 'What if" design or production considerations.

1. What if the F4U had also been purchased by the USAAF - the 8th AF would have had a longer range, more maneuverable escort fighter much earlier in the war.



I have wondered the same thing. But would the lack of a turbosupercharger (which the P-47 had) hinders its performance in the high altitude battles over Europe?

At 22-26,000 feet - not at all. It had a supercharger early and then water/meth injection in -4's.. The only real area that it was inferior to a P-47 was above 28-30K - in speed and maybe dive.

- yes at 35+

 

[kool kitty89]

The 262 could have also used the Ta-152's Jumo 213E engine which was about the same size and weight but had significantly more power. Though, as a piston-engine aircraft it probably wouldn't have performad much better than the best allied planes and probably wouldn't pass 500mph in level flight, even with boost. Still it would still be quite fast and would have a longer range than the jet version; it would also likely have been able to remain aloft on a single engine, like the P-38 and would obviously have awsome dive performance.

 

[johnbr]

For me it is.
US make the P38k
XP67 with rr Crey
P51H with rr Griffon
UK Frank whittle lot of money to make his jet engine.
make the Tempest Mark 1
MB5
Italian G.56 with db603La
Mc 205 db605d
Piaggio P.119 bmw 801TQ
Germany FW 190 with bmw 801f
Heinkel 277 with 4 bmw 802
Heinkel 280 with he30 and 3 mauser mg.213c 20mm
Horton 229 with he011c and 4 mauser mg.213c 20mm
Bv p211.01 with bmw 003d in stead of the He 162
Me 262HG111 with jumo 004h
BV 440 with db623

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

That B-17 looks pretty interesting. Would those extra jet engines be a quicker get away device, or would it be added range? Because they still have the props to fly it.

What would happen if you went back to WWI.....Took a Spad XIII.....and put a jet engine on it?

 

[Snautzer01]

it was done before

It could have been usefull for getting the b17 even heavier payloads up in the air and i suppose a bit of extra speed over the target.