SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I forgot if it was Lexington or Saratoga that successfully "bombed" Pearl Harbor.
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Before anyone else asks, what altitude did they bomb at ?I forgot if it was Lexington or Saratoga that successfully "bombed" Pearl Harbor.
Good question.Before anyone else asks, what altitude did they bomb at ?
Good question.
I would suppose that it would have to be level bombing, as I don't think either carrier was designed for the high-G pull-out needed for dive-bombing...
The US wouldn't have installed radar, deployed over three hundred combat aircraft and moved their own carriers to Pearl if no thought was given to a carrier-launched attack.Apparently, no thought was given to a carrier-launched attack even though the USN had, I've read, wargamed exactly this scenario.
The USN wargamed carrier-launched attacks on Pearl Harbor. Why the poor readiness is not known to meChennault predicted it in 1925 after he embarrassed the Navy brass during Army Navy war games. We know what happened to him.
I'd imagine a bunch of floatplanes flying around on an early Sunday morning would arouse some attention.
The Japanese fleet received an intelligence update less than 6 hours before the assault began correctly identifying what ships were in the harbor. There was no need for extensive floatplane reconnaissance.Sure, but like I asked, just how much? It's one aircraft flying high above defying identification and given that people didn't exactly know what Japanese aircraft looked like, nor were they expecting them, how would that reaction take shape? I doubt they'd do anything like launch fighters to investigate, not on a Sunday...
The Japanese fleet received an intelligence update less than 6 hours before the assault began correctly identifying what ships were in the harbor. There was no need for extensive floatplane reconnaissance.
Was just reiterating….Nagumo's intel was pretty fresh. Not sure how any other intel would have changed plans and what value additional aerial reconnaissance would add. Top Secret AssignmentGo back a few posts, bud...
Sure, but like I asked, just how much? It's one aircraft flying high above defying identification and given that people didn't exactly know what Japanese aircraft looked like, nor were they expecting them, how would that reaction take shape? I doubt they'd do anything like launch fighters to investigate, not on a Sunday...
I have a friend (really) who is retired U.S.Army. He told me the US military closes for Christmas.
When did the production shift to the folding wing Marlet/Wildcat? I thought it was December 1941, but if the British were taking delivery in October it was significantly earlier. This means there must have been a huge drought in the US Navy taking delivery of Wildcats.On 7 Dec Saratoga was at San Diego having just completed a routine docking at Bremerton. So she would have survived to arrive, as historical, at PH on the 15th.
Yorktown left Norfolk for the Pacific on 16 Dec, arriving San Diego on the 30th.
Hornet, having only completed at the end of Oct, was undertaking a shakedown cruises Dec-Feb. She sailed for the Pacific 4 March 1942 reaching San Diego on the 20th. In Feb she carried out tests launching B-25 bombers to prove the feasibility of that ahead of the Doolittle Raid. 4-5 months was a typical work up and transit to the Pacific time for a US fleet carrier in WW2. So I doubt she can be got there much quicker. Maybe 2-3 weeks at most.
Wasp and Ranger could have been sent, but the USN was never keen on using Ranger in the Pacific. But needs must. Historically Wasp wasn't earmarked for the Pacific until after the loss of Lexington at Coral Sea.
The first USN reports of units having folding wing F4F-4 was the 17 Feb 1942, with Wasp's VF-71 having just received them in the previous week. That was followed by Long Island and Charger (6 each) and Hornet's VF-8 by the time she sailed for the Pacific. Even fixed wing F4F-3/3A were in short supply with the fighter squadron on either Lexington or Saratoga in this period still flying Buffalos.
You will recall from previous discussions that RN Martlet II with folding wings were only delivered from Oct 1941. Illustrious left with the first batch for squadrons in the U.K. in Dec.
There would be no US "demand" for RN carriers. There might be a "request" for help. But I'm not sure how quickly it could be fulfilled. Illustrious had only begun her work up in Nov and only had one Swordfish squadron aboard. Formidable only completed her repairs at the beginning of Dec after 6 months in dock and had no aircraft. The rest of their squadrons were in the U.K. So both need work up time.
And, if the Lexington and Enterprise Air Groups had survived at PH by being ashore, none of their aircraft are compatible with the British carriers anyway. So they need to return to the U.K. I doubt the RN would be willing to give up Victorious as the sole Home Fleet Carrier at the time. Which only leaves Indomitable. But RN pllans in autumn 1941 were calling for reinforcement of the IO and had a carrier, not necessarily Indomitable, pencilled in. But by the end of the year she is the only one available.
So I'm not sure the RN is in a position to help. The USN might just have to suck it up, rely on their own resources and hope that Lexington and Enterprise can be repaired quickly. It may mean cancellation of some of the strikes against Japanese outposts in the early months of 1942.
I have to wonder how the war would have gone had the Axis invested into foreign intel, including signals intelligence, and especially improved both their encryption and security/sops of diplomatic and military communication. A good intel network may have discovered the Ultra and Magic signals intelligence programs, forever changing the Battle of the Atlantic, Pearl Harbour, Midway, etc.Thing about ships is they move about. So yesterdays Intel is tomorrow's mistake. Can never have enough intel.
As a young deck officer, I have been well trained in firefighting and other courses and conducted drills myself, but when the first real fire onboard incident happened, my initial performance was slow and not very professional. I always remain grateful to our 3rd engineer who shouted at me and brought me to my senses. Later on, in other incidents, I reacted much faster. And shouted at others and kicked some asses (not too hard).A case of disbelief? You can train for something for years but it's still training. When the real deal happens, there might be a disconnect between reality and complacency.