What if Germany had access to large Nickel reserves in WWII?

[Jagdflieger]

I know. It was a shout out of sorts to John Vasco and Jagdflieger.

As if I hadn't suspected just something like that

10. Mai 2006 - Vor 65 Jahren: Rudolf Heß fliegt nach Großbritannien

Vor 65 Jahren: Rudolf Heß fliegt nach Großbritannien

www1.wdr.de

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[John Vasco]

I know. It was a shout out of sorts to John Vasco and Jagdflieger.

Careful...

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Nah, that's what this was for...

View attachment 663669MoF 114

It was a joke.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Careful...

Maybe he doesn't like this thread?

 

[SaparotRob]

Careful...

I was gonna' award you a funny but I was being careful.

 

[special ed]

I'm not careful, (ask the mods) so here is your funny.

 

[Macandy]

Germany drags the war on into Fall 1945.

April 1, 1954, the Berlin Peace Park and nuclear attack memorial opens

 

[PStickney]

A big reduction in nickel content was the culprit in exhaust valves corrosion, with disastrous results on reliability for the 1st line aero engines of German production (DB engines suffering also due to not having the oil de-aerator - "Oelschleuder" - like the Jumo engines had; de-aerator was introduced by some time in late 1943). Eventually, the BMW solution to the problem from late 1942 was adopted for the DB engines.
Lack of nickel was also a problem for making durable blades for turbine on jet engines, that was circumvented via the introduction of air-cooled blades made from the chromium-rich alloy.
You can take a look at Calum Douglas' book, or his webinar discussing the rough state of availability of raw materials in Germany, ans steps taken to alleviate the problems.

As for disparity between workforce and machine tools, see for example this document; yes, not all the machines are equal. Basically, Germany in early 1945 have had about the same number of machine tools as the USA, despite having far less population.

As far as a jet's combustors and turbine blades go, while Nickel is a factor, it's only one of many - Cobalt is also important in high temperature alloys.
But, be that as it may, overall, I don't think it would make much difference in terms of performance - Junkers and BMW's compressor and turbine aerodynamics were, shall we say, sub-optimal, with a low pressure rise per stage, low overall efficiency, and very susceptible to compressor stalls.

 

[WARSPITER]

Throughout the war German AFV armour used chromium as a main ingredient together with molybdenum.
Certain proportions were used for each range of armour thickness with the thinner armour being made harder.

By 1943 all sizes started to use nickel as molybdenum was used less.

By 1944 only armour thicker than around 100mm used nickel due to supply. There is a lot on the later tanks having
armour that cracked easily but nickel was used to increase the ductility of the thicker plates.

Testing by various countries of armour from German tanks showed big variations in crystallisation and fibre - even on plates
from the same vehicle. There was a definite problem for Germany after 1942 when supply shortages started to bite. The
compound effect was that chemists etc had to spend more and more time trying to come up with alternative mixes instead
of improving what they already knew worked.

I would assume alloys for aircraft had the same ongoing problems.

 

[Jagdflieger]

.....By 1944 only armour thicker than around 100mm used nickel due to supply. There is a lot on the later tanks having
armour that cracked easily but nickel was used to increase the ductility of the thicker plates.....

IIRC that was the main reason as to why the Panther tank - though 4-5 times more expensive to produce then a Panzer IV - and despite its 75mm KwK 42 L/70 did not have a larger impact then the Panzer IV armed with the 75mm KwK 40 L/48 or the Jagdpanzer IV armed with the KwK 42 L/70.

If Germany would have had Tungsten in abundance or at least in reasonable quantities the armor piercing shells would have cancelled the need for the 88mm and would have
had a huge impact onto the quality of any tooled/machined parts.

I just wonder as to how long this thread is going to continue with more or less everyone being aware that Germany lacked in everything

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[WARSPITER]

This thread will keep going while it still lacks the requisite number of posts.

 

[SaparotRob]

Was the P-39 affected by the lack of tungsten?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Was the P-39 affected by the lack of tungsten?

No, it just went back underground and mined its own.

 

[WARSPITER]

Was the P-39 affected by the lack of tungsten?

It was. They should have added 5000 kg more so it couldn't take off. Would have been safer.

 

[GrauGeist]

This thread will keep going while it still lacks the requisite number of posts.

Plus the occasional, yet nessecary thread drift.

 

[Snautzer01]

As far as a jet's combustors and turbine blades go, while Nickel is a factor, it's only one of many - Cobalt is also important in high temperature alloys.
But, be that as it may, overall, I don't think it would make much difference in terms of performance - Junkers and BMW's compressor and turbine aerodynamics were, shall we say, sub-optimal, with a low pressure rise per stage, low overall efficiency, and very susceptible to compressor stalls.

Care to explain a bit more? Sounds interesting. I do not know diddley sqwat about what you are saying so ....if you could keep it iron age simple it would be fine.

 

[SaparotRob]

Plus the occasional, yet nessecary thread drift.

I'm doing my bit, sir.

 

[nuuumannn]

It was a joke.

Ya don't think that wasn't?

 

[Icorps1970]

I have, for some time, wondered what the outcome of WWII would have been if Germany had access to an adequate supply of nickel. Whilst I am no historical expert, I have come across a lot of references that a shortage of many key raw materials, but most notably nickel, placed a significant limitation on the ability of Germany to produce high quality metals for use in all their military equipment.

This thought has just recently been reinforced having read about the issues with engine materials in the book The Secret Horsepower Race (Callum Douglas). This is just one example, I know aero-engines were not the only area suffering huge issues as a result of limited nickel reserves. It's certainly interesting to extrapolate on what it could have looked like - just fighter performance alone could have been very different!

Once the United States entered the war the Axis was doomed. Did not matter what they had access to. The problem with German aircraft was fuel not alloys. They had no way to make 150 octane fuel. Though their turbine engines would have been better perhaps with better alloys. Then there was pilot quality and the fact that the US made FAR more aircraft and had much better pilot training. fresh flight school graduates in combat by the Germans was something Robert S. Johnson commented on when people talked of all the P-51 victories. And besides by early 1944 most of their best pilots were dead and they increasingly relied on the poorly trained replacements. Aircraft were not the issue, though as time passed many were being made in underground facilities and even abandoned railway tunnels and suppliers were routinely bombed. The Japanese had the same problem and a with the fuel issue. The war was one of PRODUCTION. A look at the US production shows that nobody else came close. We gave the Soviets almost as much material as we used from D-Day till the end of the war in Europe. At one point they were out of propellant powders for rifle ammo. But it came from the US to save them. Many of their tanks were made with American steel. We gave them 425000 tactical trucks, whole regiments of tanks, about 20000 aircraft. Etc etc. So they had modern military trucks while the Germans were using horse carts.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

The problem with German aircraft was fuel not alloys.

There is no "THE problem", and nobody said there was.

But it is irrefutable that the lack of (specifically Nickel) had a dramatic impact on the actual operational performance and effectiveness of a huge
portion of the military machines Germany produced. This was particularly pronounced in the case of aero engines, where it had such a bad impact
that it would have made no difference if Germany had better fuels because the performance of German aircraft was being capped by the
low nickel exhaust valves, at a level far below the knock limit of the fuels they already had. (The British tested a BMW801 on Allied 100/130, at the
Thornton Aero Engine Laboratory operated by Shell scientists, and it made less peak power than when on German C3).

So you see, its rather important to look at these things holistically and not go looking for "THE" problem.

Much of that is actually documented with archive files on this actual thread, which rather suggests you have not read it.

With respect to producing LOTS of things, that only works if you have the ability to make them of sufficient quality to work properly. Nothing
is ever about ONE thing in isolation. (page from Allied intelligence report on German industry after the war ended and they had been able
to interrogate the leading German engineers and managers)