What If: Mosquitos vs Oil Targets

davebender · Apr 12, 2012

I agree.

On the other hand, 3.7cm flak has a much higher rate of fire. 48 3.7cm flak weapons can put a lot of shells into the air and a single hit will cause major damage to any aircraft.
- 160 rpm. 3.7cm Flak37. Standard Luftwaffe light flak for most of the war.
- 250 rpm. 3.7cm Flak43. Entered production at the end of 1943.

Don't forget fighter aircraft. If the Mosquitos are bounced while at low level they are likely to be slaughtered. Success and survival depends on surprise like the Luftwaffe achieved when attacking the Port of Bari with a similiar size force of light bombers.

wuzak · Apr 12, 2012

davebender said:
Don't forget fighter aircraft. If the Mosquitos are bounced while at low level they are likely to be slaughtered. Success and survival depends on surprise like the Luftwaffe achieved when attacking the Port of Bari with a similiar size force of light bombers.

I'm not.

Mosquitos did encounter fighters while flying bombing missions at low level, and survived quite well.

Also, I believe in mid 1943 the numbers of fighters in the west was relatively low, being increased later in the year to combat the threat from the 8th AF.

From mhuxt's spreadsheet there were 51 Mosquito bomber losses in daylight operations from May 1942 to May 1943. 20 were from fighters, 18 from flak, 5 for unknown reasons and 8 from collisions and crashes not (necessarily) due to enemy action.

wuzak · Apr 12, 2012

davebender said:
I agree.

On the other hand, 3.7cm flak has a much higher rate of fire. 48 3.7cm flak weapons can put a lot of shells into the air and a single hit will cause major damage to any aircraft.
- 160 rpm. 3.7cm Flak37. Standard Luftwaffe light flak for most of the war.
- 250 rpm. 3.7cm Flak43. Entered production at the end of 1943.

I always go the impression that the 3.7cm flak guns were more for medium level targets, rather than low level targets. The 88s were for high altitude targets.

At low level, and Mosquitos could and did attack from as little as 50ft, how well could the 3.7cm flak guns track a target?

Siegfried · Apr 12, 2012

davebender said:
Germany and the Second World War: The strategic air war in Europe and the ... - Horst Boog, Gerhard Krebs, Detlef Vogel - Google Books

Approximately 3/5th of flak batteries were heavy.
attributed primarily to flak.

Each heavy flak battery of 6 x FLAK 37 8.8cm guns had a pair of 20mm guns, usually the quad 2.0cm FLAK 38. These were for self defence but I presume could create a formidable barrier if properly placed. Sighting for 3.7 and 2.0 cm guns would have been the same: via a lead computing reflector sight with the rate signal used to deflect the reticle derived from tachogenerators. Coincidence range finders were available but their use may have fallen out of fashion.

pinsog · Apr 12, 2012

What about a night attack? Cuts down on fighters. Really cuts down on fighters capable of intercepting a Mosquito. Would also cut down on the accuracy of light and medium flak guns. Would also cut down on bombing accuracy.

wuzak · Apr 12, 2012

Are you thinking high altitude (20k ft+) or low altitude?

I would think that a low altitude night raid could be quite hairy.

wuzak · Apr 12, 2012

Another question is, I suppose, where do you get the pilot and navigator/bombadier from?

If they come from the ranks of the heavy bomber pilots you would have to reduce the heavy bombers being used by the same numaber as Mossies being used (Lancaster/Halifax 1 pilot per aircraft), or half if you took from the 8th AF heavies (2 pilots per plane). I suppose there are other light/medium bomber outfits which could be changed over.

davebender · Apr 12, 2012

Not a refinery complex. There are multiple structures higher then 50 feet. Not to mention danger from your own bomb blasts and refinery explosions.

Ploesti was bombed from 500 feet. I don't think you want to attack any lower.

davebender · Apr 12, 2012

New guys. Recruited and trained in secret.

Germany had excellent intelligence services and they watched RAF Bomber Command closely. If you take assets from RAF Bomber Command the Luftwaffe will find out. Then it will be almost impossible to conduct a surprise attack.

wuzak · Apr 12, 2012

davebender said:
Not a refinery complex. There are multiple structures higher then 50 feet. Not to mention danger from your own bomb blasts and refinery explosions.

Ploesti was bombed from 500 feet. I don't think you want to attack any lower.

Maybe teh actual bombing would be higher, butthe approach could be that low - the attack on the Philips factory in 1942 was that low, with the Mosquitos and Bostons having to climb to go over the factory walls.

As for bomb blasts, Mosquitos used delayed fuses when bombing from low level - IIRC, 11s delays. SHould be plenty of time for a Mossie to get clear of the blast zone.

As for Ploesti, was there structures preventing bombing from lower than 500ft?

davebender · Apr 12, 2012

How many aircraft can bomb and clear the blast area before that 11 second delay expires? I would guess not more then a single squadron. Not enough to cripple a hydrogenation plant.

Your best chance to achieve surprise might be to convince the Luftwaffe your Mosquito light bombers are normal RAF Bomber Command aircraft. Stettin is only about 75 miles from Berlin. Have the Mosquitos tag along with Lancaster Bombers attacking the German Capital.

Just before reaching the Berlin flak belt the Mosquito light bombers dive to 500 feet and make a high speed approach to Stettin. The lead squadron act as path finders, dropping parachute flares to illuminate the refinery complex for the bombers. Disappear into the darkness over the Baltic immediately after bombing.

Shortround6 · Apr 12, 2012

The 37mm guns were able to train as well as the 20mm or close to it. the bigger prolem is that the PRACTICAL rate of fire was no where near the cyclic rate of fire. Usually about 1/2 or less. the early models fired an average 80rounds per minute but for combat against low flying aircraft the cycle rate is probably better. BUT even allowing 150rpm it takes 4.8 seconds to fire 12 shots (assuming that the 6 or 8 round clips can be linked) and in 4.8 seconds a 300mph airplane can cover 720 yds. It is in the longer ranges with more extended firing times that the cycle rate falls as the loaders struggle to keep up with the gun/s.

German 20mm guns were feed by 20 round boxes so the faster firing guns need a magazine change every 2 1/2 seconds. against really low fliers they will be doing good to empty one box against a single target but two is probably out of the question.

Siegfried · Apr 12, 2012

wuzak said:
I'm sure that the targets attacked by Mosquitos at low level weren't exactly undefended.

I suspect in most cases they were not defended well. A squadron of fighter bombers can potentially attack hundreds of targets over hundreds of km, a FLAK battery can be in only one spot at a time. A pair of guns might bring down two enemy fighters but the rest may escape. Achieving adequate flak density to deter an attack coming at an unknown time and place is expensive. That's why air power works I would say.

Siegfried · Apr 12, 2012

Shortround6 said:
The 37mm guns were able to train as well as the 20mm or close to it. the bigger prolem is that the PRACTICAL rate of fire was no where near the cyclic rate of fire. Usually about 1/2 or less. the early models fired an average 80rounds per minute but for combat against low flying aircraft the cycle rate is probably better. BUT even allowing 150rpm it takes 4.8 seconds to fire 12 shots (assuming that the 6 or 8 round clips can be linked) and in 4.8 seconds a 300mph airplane can cover 720 yds. It is in the longer ranges with more extended firing times that the cycle rate falls as the loaders struggle to keep up with the gun/s.

German 20mm guns were feed by 20 round boxes so the faster firing guns need a magazine change every 2 1/2 seconds. against really low fliers they will be doing good to empty one box against a single target but two is probably out of the question.

Old information still doing the rounds of the internet re the magazine. The 2.0cm FLAK C/38 used 40 round boxes though they could use the older 20 round magazines of the pre war and much older and slower firing C/30 gun.

The C/38 had a cadence of 480 rounds per minute, in the flakvierling litterally (flak quadling) mount generally only two guns were fired while the other two were being reloaded and cooling a little. The result was a practical and very sustainable rate of fire of just under 2 x 480 rpm. It didn't matter much that the magazines were 20,40,60 or 100. I would suggest 40 might even be optimal from an ammunition handling point of view and would stack neatly in wooden crates.

wuzak · Apr 12, 2012

davebender said:
How many aircraft can bomb and clear the blast area before that 11 second delay expires? I would guess not more then a single squadron. Not enough to cripple a hydrogenation plant.

You're correct. I believe a squadron of 12 could drop their bombs and clear the area before the bombs went off.

With a hydrogenation plant I'm sure there are plenty of targets which could be bombed by squadrons in this manner without causing problems for other squadrons bombing other areas of the plant,

In any case, there were other fuses with longer delays if needed.

davebender said:
Your best chance to achieve surprise might be to convince the Luftwaffe your Mosquito light bombers are normal RAF Bomber Command aircraft. Stettin is only about 75 miles from Berlin. Have the Mosquitos tag along with Lancaster Bombers attacking the German Capital.

Just before reaching the Berlin flak belt the Mosquito light bombers dive to 500 feet and make a high speed approach to Stettin. The lead squadron act as path finders, dropping parachute flares to illuminate the refinery complex for the bombers. Disappear into the darkness over the Baltic immediately after bombing.

You could also do the same during the daylight with the 8th AF bombers. In both cases the reduced speeds may compromise the Mosquito's range and cancel its key advantages - speed and agility (for a bomber). AT night the slower speed required to stay with the Lancs and Halifaxes would render the Mosquito far more vulnerable to nightfighters than otherwise.

But the idea of using the BC bomber stream as a cover or diversion is quite valid. As the main force heads towards Berlin (per your example) they will attract the bulk of the NF force in their region. The Mosquito force, flying low and fast could sneak past the pre-occupied defences and attack the oil installation. They may even be able to achive this before the main force reaches Berlin. The Main force could continue on its mission, or turn and bombs the fires set by the Mossies.

mhuxt · Apr 13, 2012

davebender said:
Don't forget fighter aircraft. If the Mosquitos are bounced while at low level they are likely to be slaughtered. S

The numbers suggest that isn't the case - Mossies suffered far less from fighters when at low level than when up high.

Even when the formation was indeed bounced in daylight, slaughter was not the result. There were a couple of ops to Norway in which the formation was bounced, but only one aircraft was lost. On the Philips raid, the Mossies were travelling more slowly than normal to maintain formation, and were attacked by Fw 190s. The two tail-end Charlies, by pre-arrangement, broke away to draw the fighters. One Mossie was damaged, the other outpaced the Wulfs and actually went on to bomb the target.

There were two occasions on which two Mossies from the same daylight bomber formation were shot down by fighters, one in October '42, one in April '43.

wuzak · Apr 13, 2012

davebender said:
Germany had excellent intelligence services and they watched RAF Bomber Command closely. If you take assets from RAF Bomber Command the Luftwaffe will find out. Then it will be almost impossible to conduct a surprise attack.

Really?

I got the impression that all German agents in the UK were captured or turned, and all the information that was fed back was misinformation.

davebender · Apr 13, 2012

A Mosquito looks a lot different then a B-17. If 100 Mosquitos tag along during daylight and split off from the main formation en mass I think the Luftwaffe air defense network would notice.

Night is a different matter. German radar will notice 100 aircraft splitting off but they won't know what type aircraft. I suspect WWII era air search radar didn't work well for low flying aircraft so the Mosquitos are likely to disappear from the screen when they reach 500 feet.

@300mph it's only 15 minutes from Berlin to Stettin. The attack on Stettin will be over before the Luftwaffe figure out where the 100 aircraft went. So Mosquito light bombers will be faced only with flak, which is plenty bad enough at Stettin. Losing all 100 Mosquitos to light flak would be worthwhile if the hydrogenation plant is destroyed. That's the grim calculus of war.

tomo pauk · Apr 13, 2012

Siegfried said:
Old information still doing the rounds of the internet re the magazine. The 2.0cm FLAK C/38 used 40 round boxes though they could use the older 20 round magazines of the pre war and much older and slower firing C/30 gun.

The C/38 had a cadence of 480 rounds per minute, in the flakvierling litterally (flak quadling) mount generally only two guns were fired while the other two were being reloaded and cooling a little. The result was a practical and very sustainable rate of fire of just under 2 x 480 rpm. It didn't matter much that the magazines were 20,40,60 or 100. I would suggest 40 might even be optimal from an ammunition handling point of view and would stack neatly in wooden crates.

How can one load one pair of barrels while all barrels are trained vs. the enemy aircraft?? The loaders are in cover/ditch/shelter when such an AA gun is firing!

A good source that can prove that 40 round box was in service use could also come in handy.

davebender · Apr 13, 2012

When defending a fixed installation (i.e. hydrogenation plant) the flak weapons, radar, communications, fire control center etc. would all have permanent defensive positions that provide cover. Crew are protected from everything except a direct hit.

What If: Mosquitos vs Oil Targets

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