What if the Allies had declared war on the Soviets in 1939.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

This is just an interesing what if scenerio. We all know this did not happen but what if the Allies had declared war on the Soviets in 1939.

The British and the French had allready agreed to defend the Polish if they were attacked. They declared war on Germany after it invaded Poland on Sept. 1, 1939. The French and British actually declared war on Sept 3, 1939. Later that month on Sept. 17 1939 the Soviets who had allready met with Germany and come up with a plan on how to devide Poland after the invasion (called the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact) then proceded to invade the Polish from the East. They technically were aggressors on the side of Germany. Once the two invading Armies met they helped each other with strategic plans and continued to occupy the rest of the country. In just the 2 years until Germany invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 the Soviets killed or deported 1.8 million Polish citizens in there area of occupation.

How would this have effected the war if France and England had declared war on the Soviets?

Why did they choose not to declare war on the Soviets?

Would Germany and Russia been able to cooperate eneogh with each other fight the French and the British?

Would Hitler still have invaded the Soviets in 1941?

How would the US have reacted to a British/French war against Germany/Russia.

What are your thoughts?

Below are pictures of Russian and German troops together in Poland.

 

[Glider]

Seeing as the Germans were all over the British/French forces in record time, the Russian forces added to to the Germans would have crushed us.

 

[syscom3]

The US would have stayed out of it. US neutrality and isolationism was still very strong at the time.

 

[Glider]

In 1939 it wouldn't have mattered if the USA had joined in. The USA had no tanks, no planes capable of taking on the Germans and the production of war material hadn't had a chance to develop.

Nope it would ahve been a very short glorious defeat.

 

[mkloby]

Axis production capabilities augmented by the USSR would have been staggering. I agree with Glider that given the unprepared nature of the Allies, and also the US, there would have not been a chance of victory for the Allies - at least not in the short run.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Interesting ideas that I pretty much also had thought of and agree with you. Just want to see what others think. I think that if the Soviets had war declared on them it would have been a tragedy...

 

[mkloby]

The only possible "good" outcome for the Allies would have been in when Germany attacked Poland on 1 Sep, they actually attacked Germany's western border. Germany would not have been able to sustain it's attack vice Poland and defend her western border. It's possible that Russia could have backed out of the pact - since she did invade on 17 Sep I believe.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeap 17 Sept, 1939 is when they invaded.

 

[Raf ace]

I realy dont get it

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

What is there not to get?

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

here's how i'd see it- USA stay out of the war as per the real war, however i agree that the Russians would have aided the Germans in inflicting a huge defeat in France, but at the same time they wouldn't be a great deal of help in some respects, mostly because of the time it would've taken to get the troops to France. However i don't see the Russians being able to get enough troops into France to change the outcome in anyway, the advance was so quick extra troops would have done little, then both Germany and Russia are facing the Channel, Russia would have been little help here because of their non-existant airforce, extra naval strength perhaps? not up to the standards of the RN however, ultimately however as long as hitler was making the decisions he would have declared war on the 'Communist Infidels' sooner or later out of hatred for them...........

 

[Medvedya]

, Russia would have been little help here because of their non-existant airforce, extra naval strength perhaps? not up to the standards of the RN however

The VVS was just out-dated, not non-existant. On the other hand the VMF (Red Navy) was a mere shadow of what it became in the Cold War.

 

[mkloby]

The VVS was just out-dated, not non-existant. On the other hand the VMF (Red Navy) was a mere shadow of what it became in the Cold War.

And that was a shadow of what what the US Navy during the Cold War

I actually like the old Sevestopol class. The Soviet Navy would have been a decent force (despite lack of naval aviation) if they survived and were modernized along w/ the Imperatritsa Mariyas, the Imperator Nikolai, and Izmails (if these last weren't forsaken or destroyed during the revolution).

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

the fact remains that the Ruskies would be just as stumped by the channel as the Germans and all the other attempted invaders over the last 950 years.............

 

[Medvedya]

Oh Gawd - an invite to a Lunatic style pissing contest complete with extremely boring pages of stats going round and round and round forever. No thanks.

Stats or irrefutable historical sources quoted from Tom Clancy novels aside, the Soviet Navy must have been regarded as a credible threat by the Pentagon during the Cold War, otherwise why would billions of dollars have been sunk (no pun intended) in the USN submarine service?

Anyway - The Soviet Union had just come out of the purges by 1939, and it was mainly the legacy of those that caused the Winter War against Finland to be an utter fiasco.

This would suggest that their armed forces were in such a parlour state at that point, that even if the USSR had become a full military ally of Germany in 1939, it's extremely doubtful that they would have become directly involved in a Western offensive that would have been of no benefit to them whatsoever.

 

[Nonskimmer]

I actually like the old Sevestopol class. The Soviet Navy would have been a decent force (despite lack of naval aviation) if they survived and were modernized along w/ the Imperatritsa Mariyas, the Imperator Nikolai, and Izmails (if these last weren't forsaken or destroyed during the revolution).

The Sevastopols were pre-revolutionary buckets that would have stood little chance against the more modern battleships and cruisers of the Royal Navy, and British naval expertise. The Kirovs were an overall decent modern cruiser design, with some glaring flaws in AAA placement, but not enough to make much of a dent in the RN.

The Soviet Navy wasn't exactly inept though. They retained much of the pre-revolutionary pride and tradition that was lost in the Army, and they were actually very good sailors. The fact is that the Soviet Navy was still too small, relatively out of date, and not nearly up to the level of the RN. Not enough to make a heck of a difference on the seas.

 

[mkloby]

Oh Gawd - an invite to a Lunatic style pissing contest complete with extremely boring pages of stats going round and round and round forever. No thanks.

Stats or irrefutable historical sources quoted from Tom Clancy novels aside, the Soviet Navy must have been regarded as a credible threat by the Pentagon during the Cold War, otherwise why would billions of dollars have been sunk (no pun intended) in the USN submarine service?

Hold on cowboy - it was a JOKE not an "invite." Didn't you notice the smiley face???

 

[Medvedya]

Hold on cowboy - it was a JOKE not an "invite." Didn't you notice the smiley face???

Ah no problems - in other forums I've been in during my sabbatical from here I've grown to expect the worst!


The trouble was, although expanding and modernising the Navy was planned in the Thirties, the powers that be never gave it much priority. Indeed, when the GPW started in 1941, many of the naval guns were taken off battleships and used on land. And many sailors were given rifles and thrown in to fight alongside the RKKA. There was admittedly a large submarine fleet, and the Naval Razvechiki proved to be deadly and capable on the Kola peninsular - but STAVKA realised too late that having a powerful Navy was a good thing to have after all.

 

[mkloby]

Ah no problems - in other forums I've been in during my sabbatical here I've grown to expect the worst!

 

[Medvedya]

Incidentally - I'm going back to St. Petes in a little over a weeks time (just got my visa through today) I'll try and get some pictures of the Aurora when I'm there.