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Seriously?(contrary to the claims there is no indication that the Germans were seriously preparing for war until 1938-39 when it was clear the Allies were preparing for war).
Also keep in mind the Germans advanced MUCH further over far worse infrastructure than the Allies did in 1944 France and had less issues with supply.
Much of the claims about how bad the Germans were at logistics is post-war propaganda to bolster the image of the Allies, as they really made a ton of mistakes that the generals were very interested in covering up. After all they mostly ignored the ports and then were shocked when they ran out of supplies at the German border. Like how could the vaunted Allies miss how important Antwerp was? Then even after they captured it they didn't allocate enough labor to even fully utilize it. And they ran out of infantry replacements so were using untrained clerks as meatshields by late 1944. During the Bulge the US even had to beg the Brits for 400 Sherman tanks even as thousands of Shermans were waiting in depots in the US to go to Europe.
Look at their spending on the military to GDP from 1933-37. 1938-39 yes they were preparing for war, prior they were spending less than any likely foe and just rebuilding their military.Seriously?
I was talking about Russia, but in 1940 the Germans went further faster than the Wallies in 1944 as they didn't go out of their way to wreck infrastructure for months.Germans advanced over the much better infrastructure in 1940, than what the Allies had to overcome in 1944.
That's just a flat out wrong. The hardest fighting and bloodiest part of the French campaign for the Germans was in June:Germans also had basically no opposition in France past late May of 1940.
First of all they weren't trying to conquer the world, that was a British fabrication:Allied generals made a mistake.
German politicians made even more serious mistakes, only to find themselves in hot water when the whole enterprise of conquering the world bit them in the hides. Part of the mistakes was that Germany have had no logistical tail big enough to cater for grand plans tailored up.
I was talking about Russia, but in 1940 the Germans went further faster than the Wallies in 1944 as they didn't go out of their way to wreck infrastructure for months.
Were these locos "pushed over the side" at the end of hostilities or are they still around?Allies bit themselves in the butt with some of the bombing in France/low countries in 1944.
Yes they kept the Germans from moving supplies/reinforcements to the front. Also kept the Allies from moving supplies/reinforcements from the coast/ports inland.
About 1/3 or the locomotives and rolling stock had been sent elsewhere by the Germans from 1940 to 1944. The Air campaign reduced rail traffic by D-day 1944 to about 10% of what it have been Feb 1944. Destroyed locomotives, rolling stock, bridges, rail yards etc.
Just about everything had to go by truck and the roads were in a lot worse shape in the summer of 1944 than they had been in 1940.
The US built a few special classes of locomotives for over seas use. Around 800 2-8-0s went to England (out of over 2100 built) and 400 were "run in" by British rail roads helping make up for British losses and moving invasion supplies. Another 400 were stored for the invasion and brought across as soon as practical. Most or all of the first 400 were eventually sent to Europe.
The air campaign was more effective than they realized as it crippling Europe's transport systems. It took more effort and resources than they planned to get it working for the allies.
Yes because advancing over the same infrastructure in the same country 4 years apart is that wildly different. You also act like the Luftwaffe wasn't smashing up infrastructure either.That isn't just an apples to oranges comparison, it's apples to ostriches.
I don't think you understand your own comparison. In 1918 German resistance was stiffening exactly the same as in 1944 the closer they got to Germany. Eisenhower was problem to blame more than anything, as he genuinely refused to give up on the idea that the Germans were just about to collapse...all the way to the start of the Battle of the Bulge. He had a wager with Monty that it would be over by Christmas despite all the mounting logistical problems. So even with Market Garden command did not change its belief about anything and then their bloodiest battle of the war started because of their fixed thinking. The lesson of 1918 was overshadowed by the belief that revolution would break out in Germany despite the situation being totally different.The Allies didn't miss how important Antwerp was. Eisenhower made that clear in his report to the leaders at the Octagon Conference in Sept 1944, just a week or so after Antwerp was captured.
Problem was that having run across northern France and Belgium in 2-3 weeks, Allied intelligence believed that the German army was on the brink of total collapse 1918 style, and with it Hitler and Germany. One good kick at the German front door, it was believed, could see the war over by Christmas. Problem was Allied intelligence was behind the curve. German resistance had already begun to stiffen, something that wasn't realised until Market Garden. Touch of victory disease.
Eisenhower recognised the logistics risk in his report, but felt that risk worthwhile given the state of knowledge if it could end the war by Christmas. The Joint Chiefs could have overridden his decision but didn't (and the matter was raised by the British delegation). FDR & Churchill could have overridden his decision but didn't. Nothing was missed. A positive decision was made on a course of action. That time the risk didn't pay off for the Allies.
The WW2 USAAF intelligence magazine admits that when Patton ground to a halt due to lack of supplies the best use of the heavy bomber force probably would have been to haul fuel, bullets and beans to our ground forces.After all they mostly ignored the ports and then were shocked when they ran out of supplies at the German border.
Yes because advancing over the same infrastructure in the same country 4 years apart is that wildly different. You also act like the Luftwaffe wasn't smashing up infrastructure either.
Logistics was far more the reason behind decisions they made there. Also keep in mind the Germans advanced MUCH further over far worse infrastructure than the Allies did in 1944 France and had less issues with supply.
I was talking about Russia, but in 1940 the Germans went further faster than the Wallies in 1944 as they didn't go out of their way to wreck infrastructure for months.
The Allies didn't miss how important Antwerp was. Eisenhower made that clear in his report to the leaders at the Octagon Conference in Sept 1944, just a week or so after Antwerp was captured.
Ah gotcha, from context I thought you meant the France situation. Yes it is comparing apples to oranges, with the Germans being in a much worse situation overall in 1941.You originally said this:
The above appears to reference the Soviet Union, something which you confirm here:
My comment was in reference to the Eastern Front.
How so in your mind specifically? The Germans were outnumbered in 1940 and 1941 and in 1944 in all categories. Yet they continued advancing the Allies stalled.Comparing operations on the Eastern Front in the summer of 1941 to those in France in the summer of 1944 is a comparison verging on ludicrous. Even a comparison of operations in France in spring 1940 to those of summer 1944 is one bordering on silly given the enormous difference in political, economic, and military conditions between the two time periods.
Exactly. That was the great mistake.Antwerp wasn't the problem, it was clearing the approaches to it — the Scheldt — a job given mostly to the Canadians and one not begun until October.
Since the cavity magnetron has become a sort of magic device there are lots of claims about what qualified and who did it, in order USSR, Japan, Britain. The German field sets were more advanced than the British ones in 1940, but not the ones under development. The Germans then standardised in order to make the numbers required, while the allies made improvements. Given the results of 1940 air fighting, and the lack of Luftwaffe raids on Britain 1941 onwards deciding best air defence systems lacks evidence.At the start of the war they were ahead in radar, but lost the lead due to the US and UK merging their programs, the Germans giving up on cavity magnetron research (which they had the lead in until 1940), and the Japanese not sharing their technology (they were at the same place with cavity magnetron research as the British in 1940 and arguably kept pace until the end of the war). They also had the best air defense system in the world until US production was able to take Britain to the next level somewhere in 1943-44.
The Germans cracked things the allied merchant ship code and early war RN codes, for example See Hitler's Spies by David Kahn, copyright 1978. The cracking of various US codes also, like the Black code. Axis Allies also had successes but the Axis powers devoted plenty of effort to crack each other's systems. Nothing comparable to Ultra/Magic.Cryptography saw the German achieve immense success, something the Allies covered up until the 2000s:
In the 1940 fiscal year Germany spent more on interest and loan repayments than the war. As of 1938 Nazi Germany was going to either explode militarily or implode financially in a few years. Do the spending figures in Germany include things like the off the books MEFO loans? Europe began preparing for war because of Nazi Germany, not the other way around.Much of the wartime issues was lack of resources, lack of manpower, lack of preparation for war (contrary to the claims there is no indication that the Germans were seriously preparing for war until 1938-39 when it was clear the Allies were preparing for war).
Actually no, things like tank repair was in Germany but the tanks broke down in the east. The supply plan that assumed defeat of the Red Army close to the border. The Germans in the east used local food supplies, human and horse and still had supply problems. They were not too worried about civilian supplies. Same for PoW and enemy military hospitals. Soviet tactical problems kept German losses down.Logistics was far more the reason behind decisions they made there. Also keep in mind the Germans advanced MUCH further over far worse infrastructure than the Allies did in 1944 France and had less issues with supply. Much of the claims about how bad the Germans were at logistics is post-war propaganda
At the start of the Octagon conference the Combined Chiefs of Staff agree with General Eisenhower's intention to continue to strike towards Germany as a higher priority than opening the ports. The CCS do note the ports will be needed before bad weather sets in. Both 1st and 3rd Armies report they have the fuel and ammunition needed to advance to the Rhine. Centuries of warfare meant plenty of European borders were good defence lines, putting a hole in the German western defences was considered worth trying for. Clearing the approaches to Antwerp first would give the other German defences time to solidify.After all they mostly ignored the ports and then were shocked when they ran out of supplies at the German border. Like how could the vaunted Allies miss how important Antwerp was? Then even after they captured it they didn't allocate enough labor to even fully utilize it.
US army supply and loss rates were set based on North African experience, in particular the large amount of ammunition sent but not used, it took a long time to ship it back out. Changing the rates required evidence, June/July 1944, transmission of that to Washington followed by action in the US, followed by shipment and unloading. The failure to open enough ports early resulted in units being sent to the south of France and to Britain. There had been little maintenance done to French roads in 4 years.And they ran out of infantry replacements so were using untrained clerks as meatshields by late 1944. During the Bulge the US even had to beg the Brits for 400 Sherman tanks even as thousands of Shermans were waiting in depots in the US to go to Europe.
They did wreck things it was going to be or was in enemy hands, by the way the Red Army recovered Soviet territory in 1943/44 at about the same rate the Germans took it in 1941/42I was talking about Russia, but in 1940 the Germans went further faster than the Wallies in 1944 as they didn't go out of their way to wreck infrastructure for months.
Hitler's war aims were somewhat opportunistic and shifting , in the 1930's he wanted revenge on France and conquering the east. Ruling the world was held off while ruling Europe was achieved. How about outlining the terms the Germans were prepared to offer the allies? Or the ones they would accept instead of allies would not negotiate. And what happens when the extermination system is discovered.First of all they weren't trying to conquer the world, that was a British fabrication: Second I don't disagree that serious mistakes were made by Germany though they lacked options to do much else given how anti-negotiation the Allies were,
The Germans were really good even superior but the US had it easy?but the US had the war on easy mode and still managed to fuck up.
Except the majority of US forces were south, it was the Commonwealth forces that stood to be pocketed, also as the Ardennes showed, the entire attack had to be in close to unflyable weather.In fact had Hitler not been so obsessed with Antwerp in 1944 and adopted Rundstedt's plan the 90 division gamble could have seen the US army effectively collapse in NW Europe via the Ardennes offensive.
No, Army Group Centre was staying where it was until the rail head was brought forward, the lack of winter clothing shows even months later how bad the supply situation was. In 1942 it became supplies and lack of troops, 60 mile wide divisional fronts for example. The Luftwaffe largely becoming battlefield support to compensate.Also it wasn't logistics that stopped the Germans in 1941 or 1942, it was Hitler's poor choices to try and clear the flanks before going for Moscow and the obsession with trying to bag prisoners instead sticking to plan Blau.
As of around May 1942 the Germans needed to keep about half the front quiet and used multiple axis allied armies elsewhere to be able to attack, mostly taking open terrain, meantime the USSR was down to around 2/3 its pre war population. The death toll in Leningrad gives an indication of how tough it was to crack the Soviet system.Otherwise the USSR was on the verge of implosion by late 1942 economically due to the loss of territory, population, farmland, resources, etc.
wiking85 said:Also keep in mind the Germans advanced MUCH further over far worse infrastructure than the Allies did in 1944 France and had less issues with supply.
wiking85 said:I was talking about Russia, but in 1940 the Germans went further faster than the Wallies in 1944 as they didn't go out of their way to wreck infrastructure for months.
Yes because advancing over the same infrastructure in the same country 4 years apart is that wildly different. You also act like the Luftwaffe wasn't smashing up infrastructure either.
Sorry. I couldn't help myself.[All emphases added -- Thump]
Would you please make up your mind?
The first quote was about Russia, the second was about how the Germans didn't conduct a Transportation Plan level wrecking of infrastructure for months ahead of the ground campaign, and final one was that they did attack infrastructure during the operation, just not to the level that the Allies did in 1944 in the run up to the invasion so were able to cope with the issues their bombing caused because it wasn't as extensive. Part of logistical planning is to also avoid wrecking that which you will need to advance and containing attacks to that which is necessary to conduct operations. Also to avoid overextending yourselves logistically, especially when you could also simply seize at low cost a major port and the waterway that services it, in pursuit of a logistically unsustainable military operation, which is what the Allies did in NWE in 1944 and suffered the consequences as a result. That said the Germans also did the same things in November-December 1941 and suffered the consequences as a result. They too made serious mistakes, it's just that they had less room for error than the Allies did. My entire point though hinges on the narrative that the Allies were fantastic at logistics and the Germans sucked, which the historical record doesn't support, especially with the NWE campaign of 1944. Barbarossa wasn't the logistical disaster that it is often portrayed as, though it did cause considerable issues, which compounded with Hitler's serious operational/strategic mistakes.[All emphases added -- Thump]
Would you please make up your mind?
The first quote was about Russia, the second was about how the Germans didn't conduct a Transportation Plan level wrecking of infrastructure for months ahead of the ground campaign, and final one was that they did attack infrastructure during the operation, just not to the level that the Allies did in 1944 in the run up to the invasion so were able to cope with the issues their bombing caused because it wasn't as extensive. Part of logistical planning is to also avoid wrecking that which you will need to advance and containing attacks to that which is necessary to conduct operations.
Also to avoid overextending yourselves logistically, especially when you could also simply seize at low cost a major port and the waterway that services it, in pursuit of a logistically unsustainable military operation, which is what the Allies did in NWE in 1944 and suffered the consequences as a result. That said the Germans also did the same things in November-December 1941 and suffered the consequences as a result. They too made serious mistakes, it's just that they had less room for error than the Allies did.
My entire point though hinges on the narrative that the Allies were fantastic at logistics and the Germans sucked, which the historical record doesn't support, especially with the NWE campaign of 1944. Barbarossa wasn't the logistical disaster that it is often portrayed as, though it did cause considerable issues, which compounded with Hitler's serious operational/strategic mistakes.