33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,342
- Jan 31, 2021
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How so in your mind specifically? The Germans were outnumbered in 1940 and 1941 and in 1944 in all categories. Yet they continued advancing the Allies stalled.
In fact, late war German night fighters equipped with microwave radar used magnetrons from shot down RAF bomber H2S systems.The German field sets were more advanced than the British ones in 1940, but not the ones under development.
In fact, late war German night fighters equipped with microwave radar used magnetrons from shot down RAF bomber H2S systems.
Sure, and Hitler was a better dancer than Churchill.Once in a plane wearing swastikas, the range improved 40-50%. FACT.
Sure, and Hitler was a better dancer than Churchill
Churchill was no painter. Hitler could paint a room, two coats, one afternoon.Sure, and Hitler was a better dancer than Churchill.
I took thousands of at least semi skilled, if not skilled workers to make these fuses.
Where's the Germans going to get these people, from their usual pool of slave labor ?
Working under the threat of death.
They really seemed to think that insured quality, but then they were Nazis.
Per day. every day.Tens of thousands of sophisticated shells?
Could have started AFTER the invasion or really during the beginning, rather than wreck it beforehand. Certainly some of it helped, but there were heaps of problems with all sorts of logistics that had nothing to do with the bombed French infrastructure if you check out that book review I linked about Allied logistics.It's all quite well to write that from the comfort of a computer desk, but the only thing harder than an amphibious landing is an amphibious retreat. The Allies figured that in order to slow the flow of reinforcements and supplies the Transportation Plan had to be undertaken. The alternative, allowing Panzer divisions to attack the beachhead intact and in formation, was deemed to risk more than saving the road and rail net for an advance that might be snuffed out before it started.
And? Still need them close to the front given the rail situation.Not seizing a port was certainly a major problem, but to be fair, after the seizure of Cherbourg, the Germans made it clear that any port seized was going to be out of servise for a while.
Given the circumstances wasn't that lucky, it was a massive blunder not to immediately clear the Scheldt, which has been my major point.The Allies got lucky grabbing Antwerp on the fly. I think their biggest blunder was not immediately clearing the Scheldt as a priority even over M-G.
Depends on what you mean. Certainly the trans-Atlantic shipping was superb as was the Mediterranean situation. Though in all cases they learned a ton on the job rather than entering into it perfect. I wouldn't say they were superior in practice overall, but they were just as good as the best of the Axis. In NWE however the Allies made a ton of logistical mistakes despite lots of previous experience in other theaters, which is what makes it all so inexcusable. I'm not claiming any of the Axis were paragons of virtue regarding logistics, but they weren't morons as often portrayed and the Allies hardly uniformly skilled either. At seas of course the Allies had the massive skillset for it, since their entire existence, either at peace or war, depended on shipping. Inland things changed considerably.I don't think either side were geniuses, but I think it's obvious the Allies were superior at the practice. Their supply lines, after all, went all the way back to Ohio and Michigan and Dallas. And that's not even counting what the Americans did in the Pacific.
Since the USSR and Germany were at peace, and the USSR supplying Germany with lots of useful items and the mud season was occurring bombing the USSR was going to hurt Germany more than the USSR. A better example is France, no bombings before 10 May, but then mainly airfields, remembering part of the German plan was to have allied mobile forces advance into Belgium, then hinder their withdrawal. In any case the 1940 allies made little use of rail for military movement.The first quote was about Russia, the second was about how the Germans didn't conduct a Transportation Plan level wrecking of infrastructure for months ahead of the ground campaign, and final one was that they did attack infrastructure during the operation, just not to the level that the Allies did in 1944 in the run up to the invasion so were able to cope with the issues their bombing caused because it wasn't as extensive.
The allies pre Overlord assumed Germany would keep control of most of France for months to come. Having worked out how much harder it was to land troops from the sea versus railing them the allies did not want a working northern French rail system, and that was before putting in a safety margin if there were storms or the Mulberries did not perform, or unloading was hindered by air attack or mining and so on.Part of logistical planning is to also avoid wrecking that which you will need to advance and containing attacks to that which is necessary to conduct operations.
21st Army Group had already grounded combat troops to use their transport, and were breaking up others or sending them back to Britain, the supply situation and number of allied troops at Antwerp were limited, as both banks of the river had to be cleared the Antwerp forces were needed to both hold the port, the front line was in the suburbs, as well as try and clear the north bank, with its bottlenecks, while the mostly Canadian forces roped off everything along the coast and concentrated on clearing the south bank, remembering 15th Army was still quite strong with intact units, it had the option of withdrawing to the north bank.Also to avoid overextending yourselves logistically, especially when you could also simply seize at low cost a major port and the waterway that services it, in pursuit of a logistically unsustainable military operation, which is what the Allies did in NWE in 1944 and suffered the consequences as a result.
21st Army Group command included the people who had advanced across North Africa, they made few operational mistakes compared with the US and the French rail lines mostly going through Paris did not run the way the Army Group advanced. Clearing the channel ports was better. Barbarossa was a supply disaster given the many weather related casualties in the winter and before that the original supply plan.My entire point though hinges on the narrative that the Allies were fantastic at logistics and the Germans sucked, which the historical record doesn't support, especially with the NWE campaign of 1944. Barbarossa wasn't the logistical disaster that it is often portrayed as, though it did cause considerable issues, which compounded with Hitler's serious operational/strategic mistakes.
Ever worked out the size of the allied bomb lift versus the size of the French rail system? Or that the allies did little damage to the southern French rail system? The idea of starting even just before the invasion, beyond the obvious of telling the Germans to be on special alert, is that using air power to disrupt a big rail system was a new idea, no one knew if it could be done or the best way to do it. Experience was needed. The debate about bombing bridges for example, whether the heavy bombers could or should contribute. Wrecking the northern part of the system was considered necessary and most of it would remain in German hands for months to come as the allies did not expect to do a pursuit, so damage was not going to be a problem.Could have started AFTER the invasion or really during the beginning, rather than wreck it beforehand.
The fundamental allied situation in August/September 1944 was the lack of port capacity, even 21st Army Group was landing about half its supply requirements, the trucks could help clear the ports or haul supplies to the front. The US compounded its problems through inexperience and the way it set up its supply system.Certainly some of it helped, but there were heaps of problems with all sorts of logistics that had nothing to do with the bombed French infrastructure if you check out that book review I linked about Allied logistics.
The Germans had good defensive terrain on both banks, the allied forces in the area were operating with limited supplies. It was the reverse of Alamein, if the Germans took Alexandria all their supply problems were solved but they really needed the port to supply the assault to take it.Given the circumstances wasn't that lucky, it was a massive blunder not to immediately clear the Scheldt, which has been my major point.
It took until mid 1943 for the US Army to work out and put in place a standard set of mandatory labels for cargo, what was in it and who it was for, standard manifests followed in 1944. The failure to do this in 1942 had caused considerable angst. In mid 1942 an example given was one ship 30% of the cargo had no markings, 25% no addressee and just general description, e.g. Quartermaster. This was compounded by the lack of shipping, resulting in loading ships to capacity with what was on the docks, and the shortage of army equipment, leading to piecemeal arrivals of equipment on the docks. In September 1942 the equipment of 1 infantry regiment was sent to England split up between 55 ships.Certainly the trans-Atlantic shipping was superb as was the Mediterranean situation.
If you drop the sea part of the equation and use 1944 you can make this comparison for the US, otherwise show the German use of things like fuel pipelines under rivers to free bridge capacity.Though in all cases they learned a ton on the job rather than entering into it perfect. I wouldn't say they were superior in practice overall, but they were just as good as the best of the Axis.
So which other theatres did the US support Army Groups landing and entering intense combats? Or do pursuit operations? Or support troops more than a few tens of miles from the ports? When German resistance collapsed in August 1944 the allied supply system suddenly needed lots more supplies as did the civil populations the allies freed, and a working rail system required lots of coal, coal required workers and pit props, German PoWs were used in the French mines. The original Overlord plan assumed like 1918 the mines would be deliberately flooded before the Germans left.In NWE however the Allies made a ton of logistical mistakes despite lots of previous experience in other theaters, which is what makes it all so inexcusable.
It is interesting how few US Army units did operations before June 1944, the MTO had peaked at 9 divisions in July 1943, then 3 sent to England, replaced by 3 new divisions in 1944 but one was the never to see combat 2nd Cavalry, by end 1943 there were 13 divisions in the Pacific but that included the Hawaii garrison for example. By end June 1944 the US had 13 divisions in France, 23 end August (after the 2 airborne were withdrawn to England), plus the French units, 46 divisions by end December 1944, including 2 airborne.I'm not claiming any of the Axis were paragons of virtue regarding logistics, but they weren't morons as often portrayed and the Allies hardly uniformly skilled either. At seas of course the Allies had the massive skillset for it, since their entire existence, either at peace or war, depended on shipping. Inland things changed considerably.
Reference: "The Producers."Perhaps. But do not overlook Dr. Frankenstein and his Monster's rendition of Puttin' on the Ritz.
Unfortunately you have several misconceptions. At the start of the war they were ahead in radar, but lost the lead due to the US and UK merging their programs, the Germans giving up on cavity magnetron research (which they had the lead in until 1940), and the Japanese not sharing their technology (they were at the same place with cavity magnetron research as the British in 1940 and arguably kept pace until the end of the war). They also had the best air defense system in the world until US production was able to take Britain to the next level somewhere in 1943-44. Cryptography saw the German achieve immense success, something the Allies covered up until the 2000s:
Could have started AFTER the invasion or really during the beginning, rather than wreck it beforehand. Certainly some of it helped, but there were heaps of problems with all sorts of logistics that had nothing to do with the bombed French infrastructure if you check out that book review I linked about Allied logistics.
Given the circumstances wasn't that lucky, it was a massive blunder not to immediately clear the Scheldt, which has been my major point.
Depends on what you mean. Certainly the trans-Atlantic shipping was superb as was the Mediterranean situation. Though in all cases they learned a ton on the job rather than entering into it perfect. I wouldn't say they were superior in practice overall, but they were just as good as the best of the Axis. In NWE however the Allies made a ton of logistical mistakes despite lots of previous experience in other theaters, which is what makes it all so inexcusable. I'm not claiming any of the Axis were paragons of virtue regarding logistics, but they weren't morons as often portrayed and the Allies hardly uniformly skilled either. At seas of course the Allies had the massive skillset for it, since their entire existence, either at peace or war, depended on shipping. Inland things changed considerably.
Reference: "The Producers."
When discussions about Allied strategy being wrong in Sept 1944 and that the Scheldt should have been cleared rather than carrying out Market Garden, the claim is that the Allied logistics problems would have been cured by reopening Antwerp sooner. But no one ever puts a date on how soon that could have occurred.
The first coasters arrived in Antwerp on 26 Nov and the first convoy of ocean going ships arrived on 28 Nov.
So, to find out just how much everyone understands about the campaign, let's start with what everyone's best guess as to how much sooner Antwerp could have been opened?
Antwerp fell on 4 Sept. How soon do you want?That depends. When does Monty designate troops and resources, and cut orders?
Antwerp fell on 4 Sept. How soon do you want?