What If?......

[MP-Willow]

OK so the P.108 was good, but if the problums could have been resolved or Germans would have taken 4 engines Heavies seriously it would have made it. The plane was good but could have been out in production before '41. This would have given the Germans what they needed. But more importantly if they would have really put some money behind the 4 engine heavies that would have helped chace the russians past the mountains.

On the other hand, what if the Americans came in to the war in '39?

 

[Piaggio108]

He 177 good, Hah! It was awful! It's engines overheated and cought on fire as a pastime! It had strucual problems, and yet they tried to use it as a dive bomber! I thought there had been a mistake when I heard the ju88 was a dive bomber! something like 50% of the prototypes crashed! It was the worst plane ever!
On the Piaggio 108A, the one with the 102mm cannon, one prototype was fited with one for trials as a anti-ship aircraft. That I know of, no more were made.

 

[bronzewhaler82]

And you consider that help?

France? Well France were cowards but they were just as bad as the Italians. The 120,000 Vichy French in North Africa and those Italians would have been a brilliant force in numbers, only problem is they see an enemy and surrender.

How can you respect the Italians and not respect the French, it's double standards.

If you call out-numbering the British 6-1 in North Africa then being beaten by them at a loss of 130,000 captured while the British lost 500 dead and 1,200 injured, you have low standards of trying.

No the Italians weren't as bad as the French..the French weren't only cowards they were also arrogant and stupid...who else would build a fortified wall to stop the German advance...only to have the Germans walk around it?

The Germans took back the Rhineland off the french at the start of the war without a single shot being fired (yes thats true) because the French ran away as soon as they saw the Germans coming (also true)

On one particular occasion (i'm afraid i don't have the location to hand right now-its 1.44am but i'll post it later) The French had to have many of their warships sunk by BRITISH ships because the German navy were advancing towards the hugely outnumbered AND outgunned French Navy and the French refused to scuttle their ships...so the Brits did it for them at the cost of many french lives (because Britain was not prepared to have the Germans capture them and turn them against the Allies) How arrogant and mindless could the French get??!

The French leader Degaulle (spelt incorrectly) was so arrogant and annoying that Churchill and Roosevelt actually planned his assasination...the French were a bunch of useless twats...as i once heard it said "The only war the French ever won was their Civil war...and that was because they were fighting themselves"

Their airforce was useless, their army was useless and as for their navy...they were all in all a joke..

The Italians however had a decent airforce (although it wasn't used to its full potencial because of incopetance of command) I will admit their army wasn't great but it certainly had its moments (any French army moments? no thought not ) their navy was somtimes effective - their midget subs caused chaos with allied shipping early on in the war bt none of these things can the French claim

fair enough Plan_D neither of these nations were very good at fighting but i would rank the Italians over the Frogs any day...at least they lasted longer before they were occupied

 

[kiwimac]

When the italian soldiers had good equipment they were the equal of any of the allied armies. The problem here was that mussolini threw them into a war poorly-armed and ill-equipped

Kiwimac

 

[bronzewhaler82]

I could easily beleive that...Mussolini was a Muppet

 

[kiwimac]

As a f'r instance

August - Russians near Serafimovich launch a counterattack against the Italians holding the Don River in the hope of holding back the advances to Stalingrad. The Italians were outnumbered yet told to stand their ground and fight to the end. They eventually beat back the Russian tanks with Molotov cocktails. The battle in Serafimovich cost the Italians 1,700 men, but capture 1,600 Russian POW's and many small arms.

August 24 - With the victory in Serafimovich, the Italian Savoia Cavalry made up of 600 men mounted a counter attack on the Isbuschenski steppe. The Russian's comprised of 2,000 men with mortar and artillery support. One squadron attacked head on, while the other came behind the enemy lines on horseback and possessing only sabers. They completely catch the Soviets by surprise and overrun the Russian position.
Italian calvary gearing for an attack in Soviet Union

This was one of the last calvary attacks of World War II and resulted in the destruction of 2 Soviet battalions, another battalion forced to withdraw and the netting of 500 POW's, 4 large artillery pieces, 10 Mortars, and 50 machine guns.

This is of the 1942 section of this site, bravery was definatly NOT a question.

Source: http://www.comandosupremo.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=790&highlight=cavalry

Kiwimac

 

[cheddar cheese]

He 177 good, Hah! It was awful! It's engines overheated and cought on fire as a pastime! It had strucual problems, and yet they tried to use it as a dive bomber!

a bit like the manchester then 8)

and another thing its the P.108, not the 108 8)

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

yes, you could be mistaken for talking about the Me-108

 

[cheddar cheese]

yup 8) the plane that was used in the great escape 8)

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

it wasn't, ok people, which plane was used in the film the great escape?

it think it's the Bu-181, C.C. thinks it's the Me-108.....................

 

[cheddar cheese]

no, i KNOW it was the Me-108 8)

 

[Gemhorse]

The P.108 was abit like their Navy - Big ships, big guns, and Mussolini, big mouth; they sat at home most of the time , until the Allies caught-up with them - If the Italians actually ended-up fighting for the Allies, it's because they didn't like the cold steel up 'em. We lost alotta Kiwis kicking the Germans out of Italy, and I haven't seen anything yet that's impressed me that's Italian - Or French for that matter. Alotta men died because of both countries fatuous leaders or lack of them. I do respect the work of the French Resistance and the help they gave Allied aircrew and the Free French aircrew that fought with the Allies, but both countries had selfish attitudes. New Zealander's don't forget the Rainbow Warrior bombing either, or their nuclear farts in the Pacific . Both nations are ego-centric and selfish.

 

[cheddar cheese]

I haven't seen anything yet that's impressed me that's Italian

the italians are actually a very successful country 8)

 

[bronzewhaler82]

Yes....the best Pizzas i've ever eaten were in Rome but seriously i have to say Gemhorse if you want to see something Italian to impress you...go to the Vatican and see Michaelangelos Sistine Chapel...its the most mindblowing piece of art in the world..and i mean REAL art not all this crap you see today in the Tate modern etc

 

[cheddar cheese]

the italians really do know a thing about beaty though, ive never seen and ugly italian car or plane or anything else 8)

 

[kiwimac]

And Gemhorse,

The Italians were brave fighters and hard opponents. It was not the fault of the soldier that their government sent them out poorly armed and poorly supplied. The myth of the cowardly Italian fighting-man is just that, a myth.

As to your latter point, to expect a country not to be self-interested is somewhat short-sighted. Even NZ has acted in such ways, I point out to you the horrible bloody mess NZ made in Samoa around the turn of the 20th Century.

Kiwimac

 

[ahanswurst]

The Italian Piaggio was one of the best bombers made but their entry in the war was not until the 9th of June 1942. It carried 7,700 lbs of bombs. The P108B was equipped with a 102 mm canon and that must have been a thrill to fire that canon while in flight.The B-25H had a 75 mm canon and I have seen gun camera movies of that canon in action. Plus the B-25H had 14 .50 caliber machine guns to add to the punch.

 

[bronzewhaler82]

Plus the B-25H had 14 .50 caliber machine guns to add to the punch.

jesus, thats one hell of a punch! :grab:

 

[cheddar cheese]

It carried 7,700 lbs of bombs

somebodies done their research wrong, it was 7,714lbs there was a P.108T as well, which was a transport version 8)

 

[bronzewhaler82]

Blimey..who would've known that 14lbs would've made such a difference ...oh yeah Lanc...i know its slightly off topic
(so sue me ) but i read the other day that the Avro Lancaster was originally designed to have a ventral turret guarding its underside but the designers at Avro had the turret removed so they could have a larger bomb load...did you know that

sounds to me like they were deeply concerned with the crews safety