It would have been just like you saw it there, blue and yellow. However I think it would have evolved more into a Gull Grey color.
What If...?
- Thread starter cheddar cheese
- Start date
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http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Rotary/flettner/HE6.htm
Flettner received a small production contract from the German Navy in 1938, and the aircraft made its first flight in May 1939. The aircraft proved impressively controllable in flight and was a major improvement over the Focke-Achgelis designs.
In 1941, the Navy conducted an evaluation using two fighter planes to stage a mock attack on a Fl 265. The fighters could not hold the agile craft in their gunsights.
Six of his Fl 265's were evaluated by the Navy, spotting from warships and submarines. They proved to be remarkably successful in all conditions. A FW 190 and Me 109 tried for twenty minutes to shoot down one…. with camera guns but not one hit was recorded!
http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/portland/971/Reviews/choppers/fl-282.htm
In 1941/1942 the Kriegsmarine used a Fl 282 for tests on board of the CL Köln . With a landing platform mounted on turret Bruno, several operational patterns were successfully tested. The Kolibri proved to be very maneuverable, reliable and a stable platform even at bad weather conditions.
http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/aviation/shipbased/fl282/
In 1940, Flettner debuted an improved version designated the Fl 282 Kolibri (hummingbird). The Kolibri could fly at almost 90 miles per hour (145 kilometers per hour), could reach 13,000 feet (3,962 meters), and could carry an 800-pound (383-kilogram) load.
A Siemens-Halske Sh14A engine providing 150 to 160 horsepower (112 to 119 kilowatts) powered the Kolibri Fl 282.
Flettner designed his craft to carry two people, a pilot and an observer.
Imagine if a 1,175 hp DB601 engine had been fitted. It could probably carry 8 people (or 16 with two engines).
There could have been transport versions for troops and tanks, and armoured attack versions armed with cannons, machine guns and rockets.
:robot:
These could have been produced in the 100s in 1940 and used to land invasion forces of 1000s of troops in some remote area in the USSR to prepare and defend airfields to fly in more troops and tanks with the Me 323 Gigant http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/portland/971/Inbox/k-m/me-323-i.htm
This force could be armed with these
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/ir.htm
This would lead to ownage during night battles.
When this force was big enough it could have attacked Moscow from another direction simultaneously with the main German army (if Hitler had launched Operation Barbarossa in April as originally planned).
This could have led to the fall of Moscow.
(However, thankfully Hitler was an idiot and invaded Yugoslavia, delaying Barbarossa by 2 crucial months. The prescence of Axis troops in Yugoslavia also made Soviet military leaders nervous, but it seems Stalin would not believe that Hitler would attack the huge USSR.)
Eventually the whole Soviet Union is defeated and its factories and minerals are used to makes 10s of 1000s of Panthers, Tigers and aircraft, including jet aircraft.
The UK is easily defeated, and Australia is invaded and captured.
This leads to a cold war type stalemate between the Axis powers and the US.
Flettner received a small production contract from the German Navy in 1938, and the aircraft made its first flight in May 1939. The aircraft proved impressively controllable in flight and was a major improvement over the Focke-Achgelis designs.
In 1941, the Navy conducted an evaluation using two fighter planes to stage a mock attack on a Fl 265. The fighters could not hold the agile craft in their gunsights.
Six of his Fl 265's were evaluated by the Navy, spotting from warships and submarines. They proved to be remarkably successful in all conditions. A FW 190 and Me 109 tried for twenty minutes to shoot down one…. with camera guns but not one hit was recorded!
http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/portland/971/Reviews/choppers/fl-282.htm
In 1941/1942 the Kriegsmarine used a Fl 282 for tests on board of the CL Köln . With a landing platform mounted on turret Bruno, several operational patterns were successfully tested. The Kolibri proved to be very maneuverable, reliable and a stable platform even at bad weather conditions.
http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/aviation/shipbased/fl282/
In 1940, Flettner debuted an improved version designated the Fl 282 Kolibri (hummingbird). The Kolibri could fly at almost 90 miles per hour (145 kilometers per hour), could reach 13,000 feet (3,962 meters), and could carry an 800-pound (383-kilogram) load.
A Siemens-Halske Sh14A engine providing 150 to 160 horsepower (112 to 119 kilowatts) powered the Kolibri Fl 282.
Flettner designed his craft to carry two people, a pilot and an observer.
Imagine if a 1,175 hp DB601 engine had been fitted. It could probably carry 8 people (or 16 with two engines).
There could have been transport versions for troops and tanks, and armoured attack versions armed with cannons, machine guns and rockets.
:robot:
These could have been produced in the 100s in 1940 and used to land invasion forces of 1000s of troops in some remote area in the USSR to prepare and defend airfields to fly in more troops and tanks with the Me 323 Gigant http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/portland/971/Inbox/k-m/me-323-i.htm
This force could be armed with these
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/ir.htm
This would lead to ownage during night battles.
When this force was big enough it could have attacked Moscow from another direction simultaneously with the main German army (if Hitler had launched Operation Barbarossa in April as originally planned).
This could have led to the fall of Moscow.
(However, thankfully Hitler was an idiot and invaded Yugoslavia, delaying Barbarossa by 2 crucial months. The prescence of Axis troops in Yugoslavia also made Soviet military leaders nervous, but it seems Stalin would not believe that Hitler would attack the huge USSR.)
Eventually the whole Soviet Union is defeated and its factories and minerals are used to makes 10s of 1000s of Panthers, Tigers and aircraft, including jet aircraft.
The UK is easily defeated, and Australia is invaded and captured.
This leads to a cold war type stalemate between the Axis powers and the US.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
i think this is optermistic even for the germans............
Smokey said:
I doubt this would have been possible. Maybe a radial engine but not a DB601.
Smokey said:
I doubt the British would have given up easily adn even with all the firepower you suggested there still was not eneogh landing craft to conduct the invasion of England nor eneogh logostics. In this scenerio that you presented I could see the British Isles being taken however not as easily as you say.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
all the resorses of Europe?? he may of had them but in no way was he about to use them all in an invasion, i mean they were using barges for invasion craft!! and we would have put up an even more feirce defence than the germans did through normandy, and when you considder all out weapons were still sitting on the beaches at Dunkurk............
Dont worry Lanc, it would not have happened! 
The logistical problems would have been to large for him to sustain an invasion force long eneogh.
The logistical problems would have been to large for him to sustain an invasion force long eneogh.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
oh i'm not worried, we would have taken 'im 'cos we're 'ard........
Glider
Captain
I enjoyed the comments and views on the aircraft to be used on the GZ. Does anyone have any ideas as to what aircraft were to be used on the Italian Aircraft carries the name of which escapes me. My belief is that she was as near as damn it finished but lacked aircraft.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
an fundimental flaw in the opperation of any aircraft carrier
Glider
Captain
Just awnsered my own question. Name Aquila 27,000 tons converted liner with a max speed of 30 knots. On 8th Sept 1943 was ready for sea trials but lacked aircraft.
Designed to carry 36 max 51 Re2001.
Captured by the Germans but damaged by bombs. Theres a what if for you
Designed to carry 36 max 51 Re2001.
Captured by the Germans but damaged by bombs. Theres a what if for you
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
she would have been sunk even more easily than the Graf.........
I would like to point out that the Allies didn't just rely on the economic power of the US. The war was won by the economic power of the British Empire, Soviet Union and United States of America. Even with Germany holding continent Europe, he'd still be out-matched in economy.
An invasion on the British Isles would be near impossible. Think how hard it is to fight across a 500 metre wide river, then transfer that to a 26 mile one. There was a constant threat during Operation Neptune of the Allied landing craft going under the waves and the Allies had been prepping for nearing 3 years!
An invasion on the British Isles would be near impossible. Think how hard it is to fight across a 500 metre wide river, then transfer that to a 26 mile one. There was a constant threat during Operation Neptune of the Allied landing craft going under the waves and the Allies had been prepping for nearing 3 years!
Well, I thought an invasion of the UK would have gone like this:
1) I have read that if the Luftwaffe had continued to attack RAF fields, instead of launching the blitz, the RAF would eventually have been destroyed on the ground.
If BF 109s had been fiited with bomb racks and extra fuel lines for drop tanks earlier they would have been highly effective against RAF airfields and would have accelerated the RAF's defeat.
2) Now having air superiority over the UK, there are huge attacks on Scapa Flow, and many British warships are sunk.
U boats wait outside Scapa Flow, sinking many fleeing surface ships and subs.
The remnants of the Royal Navy flee to ports on the west coast of the UK.
3) On D-Day (or T-Tag), diversionary air raids are flown against many ports along the east coast of the UK.
4) Meanwhile, early in the morning, 1000s of paratroops equipped with night vision sights are landed in a remote area of Scotland near the east coast, with many antitank guns with NV sights. Nearby ports are also captured.
Immediately rough airfields for gigants and ju52s are prepared, and tanks, troops, fuel and supplies begin to arrive.
1000s of landing craft are also sent to the nearby captured ports.
Many BF109s and stukas also land, with their own fuel, bombs and ammo, to provide more air assistance.
All this time, the luftwaffe, with full air superiority and NV sights, has flown around the entire area and for many miles around.
5) The first day is crucial, for once 10s of 1000s of troops are on the ground with 100s of antitank guns and 100s of tanks, many with NV devices, there is not much the UK army can do without air assistance except fight a guerilla war.
Without the huge jungles of Vietnam, most troop movements could be seen from the air and Luftwaffe air strikes called.
If the German military had many NV devices this would mean many night battles which the UK army would not have a hope of winning.
The campaign would probably last a couple of weeks.
1) I have read that if the Luftwaffe had continued to attack RAF fields, instead of launching the blitz, the RAF would eventually have been destroyed on the ground.
If BF 109s had been fiited with bomb racks and extra fuel lines for drop tanks earlier they would have been highly effective against RAF airfields and would have accelerated the RAF's defeat.
2) Now having air superiority over the UK, there are huge attacks on Scapa Flow, and many British warships are sunk.
U boats wait outside Scapa Flow, sinking many fleeing surface ships and subs.
The remnants of the Royal Navy flee to ports on the west coast of the UK.
3) On D-Day (or T-Tag
), diversionary air raids are flown against many ports along the east coast of the UK.4) Meanwhile, early in the morning, 1000s of paratroops equipped with night vision sights are landed in a remote area of Scotland near the east coast, with many antitank guns with NV sights. Nearby ports are also captured.
Immediately rough airfields for gigants and ju52s are prepared, and tanks, troops, fuel and supplies begin to arrive.
1000s of landing craft are also sent to the nearby captured ports.
Many BF109s and stukas also land, with their own fuel, bombs and ammo, to provide more air assistance.
All this time, the luftwaffe, with full air superiority and NV sights, has flown around the entire area and for many miles around.
5) The first day is crucial, for once 10s of 1000s of troops are on the ground with 100s of antitank guns and 100s of tanks, many with NV devices, there is not much the UK army can do without air assistance except fight a guerilla war.
Without the huge jungles of Vietnam, most troop movements could be seen from the air and Luftwaffe air strikes called.
If the German military had many NV devices this would mean many night battles which the UK army would not have a hope of winning.
The campaign would probably last a couple of weeks.
This being a 'What If...?' thread allows bizarre fantasy like that, I suppose.
1) The story behind the Battle of Britain was not of one to destroy the RAF over the skies of Britain. The Luftwaffe was aiming to achieve localised air superiority over the possible landing sites along the south coast of Britain.
If the Luftwaffe had continued it's offensive against the RAF instead of moving to the Blitz, the RAF would have moved north to protect the vital production facilities.
The Luftwaffe would not be able to conduct effective operations much more north than London. The strikes north of London were largely ineffective or lucky. And a concentrated defence north of London by the RAF would halt any attempts on the production facilities based up there.
Remember, the RAF was stationed throughout the entirety of the British Isles throughout the whole of the BoB. They could move some down from Scotland, if it got beyond desperate.
2) They would have never gained complete air superiority without taking out every airfield. Let's say, somehow they have. The Luftwaffe could not reach Scapa Flow, they hadn't the range to strike at it. There were very few U-boats in 1940, not nearly enough to strike at the British Homefleet head on.
The Royal Navy only had one fleet stationed in Scapa Flow, the Homefleet. Force H were in the Med and could be brought home to defend Britain's shores if it was required.
3) The excellent organsation RAF Fighter Command had, along with RADAR could detect diversion from the real thing. Doing those raids would only take resources from the actual assault. Especially if, as you wish, the Royal Navy is wiped out. The ports are of no use.
4) Heavy equipment cannot be brought in by air. It took until 1944 for the Allies to design a Glider that was capable of carrying 'heavy' equipment into battle. At best the heaviest cannon was 57mm (6 pdr). Paratroopers were never designed to perform strikes, only to cause confusion.
It is well known that paratroopers cannot hold against a concentrated counter-attack or armoured attack. The paratroopers would be slaughtered in the air, and on the ground. Read about Crete, look at the German air invasion of there.
The landing craft have to be a capable to cross the Channel. As I said, the Allied landing armada was in constant threat of going under the waves in 1944. The Germans did not have an invasion fleet built that could cross the channel.
5) All this about Night Vision equipment is nice but the German forces did not have that technology until 1944, when they gave it to one single unit equipped with Panthers.
The first days are always crucial in an airborne offensive, the airborne must be able to capture their objectives and hold them until the main force arrives.
The British 1st Airborne were remarkable at Arnhem for holding one side of the bridge for 10 days against a SS Panzer Division but they had already failed when they failed to capture both sides. The German Fallschirmjager would have had to be perfect, on the ball and be able to hold off all concentrated British counter-attacks, supported by armour. It's a near impossible task to give a paratrooper division.
Guerilla warfare doesn't need jungles, it doesn't rely on army movements.
1) The story behind the Battle of Britain was not of one to destroy the RAF over the skies of Britain. The Luftwaffe was aiming to achieve localised air superiority over the possible landing sites along the south coast of Britain.
If the Luftwaffe had continued it's offensive against the RAF instead of moving to the Blitz, the RAF would have moved north to protect the vital production facilities.
The Luftwaffe would not be able to conduct effective operations much more north than London. The strikes north of London were largely ineffective or lucky. And a concentrated defence north of London by the RAF would halt any attempts on the production facilities based up there.
Remember, the RAF was stationed throughout the entirety of the British Isles throughout the whole of the BoB. They could move some down from Scotland, if it got beyond desperate.
2) They would have never gained complete air superiority without taking out every airfield. Let's say, somehow they have. The Luftwaffe could not reach Scapa Flow, they hadn't the range to strike at it. There were very few U-boats in 1940, not nearly enough to strike at the British Homefleet head on.
The Royal Navy only had one fleet stationed in Scapa Flow, the Homefleet. Force H were in the Med and could be brought home to defend Britain's shores if it was required.
3) The excellent organsation RAF Fighter Command had, along with RADAR could detect diversion from the real thing. Doing those raids would only take resources from the actual assault. Especially if, as you wish, the Royal Navy is wiped out. The ports are of no use.
4) Heavy equipment cannot be brought in by air. It took until 1944 for the Allies to design a Glider that was capable of carrying 'heavy' equipment into battle. At best the heaviest cannon was 57mm (6 pdr). Paratroopers were never designed to perform strikes, only to cause confusion.
It is well known that paratroopers cannot hold against a concentrated counter-attack or armoured attack. The paratroopers would be slaughtered in the air, and on the ground. Read about Crete, look at the German air invasion of there.
The landing craft have to be a capable to cross the Channel. As I said, the Allied landing armada was in constant threat of going under the waves in 1944. The Germans did not have an invasion fleet built that could cross the channel.
5) All this about Night Vision equipment is nice but the German forces did not have that technology until 1944, when they gave it to one single unit equipped with Panthers.
The first days are always crucial in an airborne offensive, the airborne must be able to capture their objectives and hold them until the main force arrives.
The British 1st Airborne were remarkable at Arnhem for holding one side of the bridge for 10 days against a SS Panzer Division but they had already failed when they failed to capture both sides. The German Fallschirmjager would have had to be perfect, on the ball and be able to hold off all concentrated British counter-attacks, supported by armour. It's a near impossible task to give a paratrooper division.
Guerilla warfare doesn't need jungles, it doesn't rely on army movements.
This scenario imagined that General Walther Wever had not died in an air crash in April 1936 and that Goering was not a retard (which thankfully he was). General Walther Wever wanted to develop the 'Ural bombers', long range heavy bombers, which Goering was not a fan of.
If these bombers had been developed, then the luftwaffe would have had bombers in the B17/B24/Lancaster/Halifax class by 1940, possibly in the hundreds.
Flying at an altitude of at least 20,000 ft these bombers would have been difficult for the Spitfires and Hurricanes to intercept.
Also this scenario included the theoretical defeat of the Soviet Union, giving Hitler huge resources and at least a year or two to make 1000s of landing craft, helicopters, bombers and fighters, as well as 100s of U-Boats.
On the subject of U boats, if Hitler had half a brain cell (which thankfully he didn't), he would have agreed to Doenitz's request for 300 U Boats to be made before the war started, which is the number that Doenitz estimated would be needed to starve the UK into surrender.
If these bombers had been developed, then the luftwaffe would have had bombers in the B17/B24/Lancaster/Halifax class by 1940, possibly in the hundreds.
Flying at an altitude of at least 20,000 ft these bombers would have been difficult for the Spitfires and Hurricanes to intercept.
Also this scenario included the theoretical defeat of the Soviet Union, giving Hitler huge resources and at least a year or two to make 1000s of landing craft, helicopters, bombers and fighters, as well as 100s of U-Boats.
On the subject of U boats, if Hitler had half a brain cell (which thankfully he didn't), he would have agreed to Doenitz's request for 300 U Boats to be made before the war started, which is the number that Doenitz estimated would be needed to starve the UK into surrender.
That's a lot of things you're suggesting that would bring about the defeat of Britain. I imagine it probably would have destroyed a lot but the actual crossing itself is always a problem. Air power alone does not win wars.
Helicopters are out of the question. They weren't an effective fighting machine in World War 2 because they still relied on a piston engine to power them. It wasn't until the jet engine became properly developed and researched that the helicopter became a weapon of war.
You forget that the British Empire and United States combined would still have economic might equal or above that of the theroetical Nazi Empire you're suggesting. The constant political flaws on the Nazi side would cause massive logistical problems in running and bringing about efficient use of that vast land mass.
There were over 1000 U-boats made by the wars end, a U-boat isn't an invincible machine. They can, and would, have been spotted while operating in British waters. Surface vessels are also efficient at destroying U-boats. In actual fact, the U-boats could only attack on hit and run strikes against poorly protected merchant vessels and convoys.
The Royal Navy would have no problem destroying the U-Boats because the U-boats would constantly be in a situation that the U-boat was not designed for, attacking surface warships.
Helicopters are out of the question. They weren't an effective fighting machine in World War 2 because they still relied on a piston engine to power them. It wasn't until the jet engine became properly developed and researched that the helicopter became a weapon of war.
You forget that the British Empire and United States combined would still have economic might equal or above that of the theroetical Nazi Empire you're suggesting. The constant political flaws on the Nazi side would cause massive logistical problems in running and bringing about efficient use of that vast land mass.
There were over 1000 U-boats made by the wars end, a U-boat isn't an invincible machine. They can, and would, have been spotted while operating in British waters. Surface vessels are also efficient at destroying U-boats. In actual fact, the U-boats could only attack on hit and run strikes against poorly protected merchant vessels and convoys.
The Royal Navy would have no problem destroying the U-Boats because the U-boats would constantly be in a situation that the U-boat was not designed for, attacking surface warships.
Piston engined helicopters were used in Korea and I think early in Vietnam. The Kolibri had a maximum speed of about 93 mph, the Huey couild reach about 127 mph. This is a significant speed increase, but not massive.
Turbines are essential for heavy loads, but 10 troops do not weigh that much.
The heli that flew the most rescue missions and had the highest success rate in vietnam was the Kaman HH43 Huskie
It uses the same rotors as the Kolibri.
The 300 U boats were designed to attack merchant vessels early in the war, before effective sonar had been developed and the UK had bought lots of old destroyers from the US. It wasn't until 1943 that the U boat fleet was defeated by sonar , destroyers and escort carriers for convoys.
The UK may have been starved into surrender by 1941/1942 if 300 U boats had been available before the war began.
Thankfully Hitler made barttleships like Bismarck instead, a massive waste of resources. Battleships like Bismarck scared merchant ships, but U Boats sunk ships. I would not be surprised if you could make 50 U boats for every battleship, and Hitler had 3 or 4 battleships, and could have had 150 - 200 Uboats instead.
Turbines are essential for heavy loads, but 10 troops do not weigh that much.
The heli that flew the most rescue missions and had the highest success rate in vietnam was the Kaman HH43 Huskie
It uses the same rotors as the Kolibri.
The 300 U boats were designed to attack merchant vessels early in the war, before effective sonar had been developed and the UK had bought lots of old destroyers from the US. It wasn't until 1943 that the U boat fleet was defeated by sonar , destroyers and escort carriers for convoys.
The UK may have been starved into surrender by 1941/1942 if 300 U boats had been available before the war began.
Thankfully Hitler made barttleships like Bismarck instead, a massive waste of resources. Battleships like Bismarck scared merchant ships, but U Boats sunk ships. I would not be surprised if you could make 50 U boats for every battleship, and Hitler had 3 or 4 battleships, and could have had 150 - 200 Uboats instead.
It's not speed that the jet improved, it was the efficieny. The range of a helicopter is always going to be low but it was extremely low on piston driven machines. Never high enough to conduct combat operations.
The U-boat was always designed to attack merchant vessels, in the waters of Britain though the U-boat was in constant danger of being discovered by surface vessels. The U-boat could not be submerged for a long periods of time, it relied on hit and run tactics.
Another 300 U-boats in the water would have certainly made a huge impact on the Atlantic conflict. The steel used to build the Bismarck might have been enough for 50 - 100 U-boats (quite optimistic, I think) but that doesn't give the time needed to build the U-boats.
The U-boat was always designed to attack merchant vessels, in the waters of Britain though the U-boat was in constant danger of being discovered by surface vessels. The U-boat could not be submerged for a long periods of time, it relied on hit and run tactics.
Another 300 U-boats in the water would have certainly made a huge impact on the Atlantic conflict. The steel used to build the Bismarck might have been enough for 50 - 100 U-boats (quite optimistic, I think) but that doesn't give the time needed to build the U-boats.
evangilder
"Shooter"
Piston helicopter were used in Korea and Vietnam, yes, but we are talking the early 40s here. It would have required development time and resources to be a feasible transport. Not to mention that 93 MPH would get you into trouble very fast if there were anti-aircraft guns nearby. Groundfire would also be a factor.
10 troops don;t weigh much? Lets just say that the average soldier was 150 lbs. That's 1,500 lbs before you even get them into their web gear and give them their weapons, ammo and supplies. It adds up faster than you think. The UH-1D, which went to Vietnam in 1963 could carry 12 troops. That's with a jet engine. I really don't think that the helicopter would have been a viable option for sealion.
10 troops don;t weigh much? Lets just say that the average soldier was 150 lbs. That's 1,500 lbs before you even get them into their web gear and give them their weapons, ammo and supplies. It adds up faster than you think. The UH-1D, which went to Vietnam in 1963 could carry 12 troops. That's with a jet engine. I really don't think that the helicopter would have been a viable option for sealion.
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