What is a P-51M?

[GrauGeist]

I tried yours and Bill's and just got this

View attachment 649787
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I'm just going to assume its one of Bill's awesome books

How about this link, Geo - and yes, it's Bill's latest edition. The one with the "Iowa Beaut" (WR*P) on the cover.

P-51B Mustang: North America's Bastard Stepchild that saved the Eight Air Force

 

[nuuumannn]

Maybe this will work to get the point across.

Not going to mention Ando's original Classic?

Mustangs of the RAAF and RNZAF

Title: Mustangs of the RAAF and RNZAF Author: Anderson, Peter N Condition: Very Good + Edition: 1st Edition Publication Date: 1975 ISBN: 0589071300 Cover: Hard Cover out Dust Jacket - 108 pages Comments: This book is a complete record of the North American Mustang fighter in Australian

regimental-books.com.au

 

[nuuumannn]

Also this one, which is a mine of information and reflects on just how much the Mustang was a truly international effort.

Rolls Royce and the Mustang, Used - AbeBooks

Rolls-Royce and the Mustang (Historical series) by David Birch and a great selection of related books, art and collectibles available now at AbeBooks.com.

www.abebooks.com

 

[ColFord]

I tried yours and Bill's and just got this

View attachment 649787
​

I'm just going to assume its one of Bill's awesome books

Amazon has been putting in anti-hot linking programming. It was primarily introduced to stop some Amazon sellers spamming posts with links to their items for sale on Amazon on various social platforms and forums and the like. Not so helpful when you want to direct someone to something helpful as in this instance.

 

[pbehn]

It's OK you guys debating the fine detail of historical knowledge, I am still working on what a shortage is.

 

[ColFord]

Not going to mention Ando's original Classic?

Mustangs of the RAAF and RNZAF

Title: Mustangs of the RAAF and RNZAF Author: Anderson, Peter N Condition: Very Good + Edition: 1st Edition Publication Date: 1975 ISBN: 0589071300 Cover: Hard Cover out Dust Jacket - 108 pages Comments: This book is a complete record of the North American Mustang fighter in Australian

regimental-books.com.au

Even Ando acknowledges David's book goes into way greater detail and aspects of the Mustang in RAAF and RNZAF service than his work did. (Yes I have them both, plus "The 'Stang' by Cam Care to round out the Antipodean trio. Hoping for Brendan to do a book on restoration of NZ2423 to make it a awesome foursome.)

The Rolls-Royce Heritage Trust book is very good also, altho there are some aspects of it where their interpretation of where ideas and inspirations came from diverge slightly from what is recorded in the Air Ministry, Ministry of Aircraft Production and NAA files.

 

[nuuumannn]

Even Ando acknowledges David's book goes into way greater detail and aspects of the Mustang in RAAF and RNZAF service than his work did.

The comment was made very much with tongue firmly planted in cheek, Col and I kind'a figured a copy of Ando's classic would grace your bookshelf.

(Yes I have them both, plus "The 'Stang' by Cam Care to round out the Antipodean trio. Hoping for Brendan to do a book on restoration of NZ2423 to make it a awesome foursome.)

Something I'm looking forward to both reading about and seeing...

RR and the Mustang is like most of the RR books in that the content defies the packaging despite the wee niggles. They pack a powerful and thoughtful punch - the Halifax equivalent to the Mustang book is equally engrossing - despite their unassuming packaging. As expected of anything from Roll-Royce, they aren't perfect but they are very enjoyable from a purely indulgent perspective.

 

[GrauGeist]

It's OK you guys debating the fine detail of historical knowledge, I am still working on what a shortage is.

Isn't that where two wires get crossed and all the smoke escapes?

 

[pbehn]

Isn't that where two wires get crossed and all the smoke escapes?

That would be a great example, as I understand it, as long as one number is smaller than another you have a shortage, so a 12 man squadron with only one squadron leader is short of 5 of something probably squadron leaders. Basically, when no one is short of anything and you have more than you need and 10 times more than anyone else, a shortage can occur.

 

[drgondog]

Also this one, which is a mine of information and reflects on just how much the Mustang was a truly international effort.

Rolls Royce and the Mustang, Used - AbeBooks

Rolls-Royce and the Mustang (Historical series) by David Birch and a great selection of related books, art and collectibles available now at AbeBooks.com.

www.abebooks.com

Birch and Muir were my 'go to' for cross checking facts for R-R and RAAF/NAA. I have been fortunate enough to know and correspond with Gruenhagen for 20 years and his book is still THE best single reference IMO. David Muir was also extremely kind in his devotion of time in supplying me with 'lost' info on NA-110.

Colin Ford can Not be left out of the conversation for his contribution (s) to The Bastard Stepchild. Too many on this forum to name.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Lets take a different approach Mr. Sinclair. Help me (us) understand your propensity for unleashing a torrent of data, from which little insight may be gained?

No it is the same approach, you make a mistake and it is time to move onto the claimed defects of other people.

For whatever eason you have descended upon a website with a collection of one of the most knowledgable experts in many historical disciplines related to WWII that I have ever been associate with - and I'm old - and rather than observe, ponder, question - you seemingly fling a torrent of stuff that spatters everywhere and stinks up the place.

I observe and ponder and question.

The stink I am seeing is someone gliding on other achievements, relying on bursts of hot air to keep aloft. I observe the self awarded right to lecture, but avoiding the responsibility of an accurate lecture. ‬I ponder the lack of self awareness, maybe it will be noticed every insult is returned, a thank you is sent for good data, the need to correct your mistakes, (given this forum we all do it, typo or incorrect memory or transcription) when reliable people correct their errors. And I question things based on documents I have and receive the lecture and a shut up message. This thread would have ended a long time ago if there had been a sorry for the typo message instead of the water pistol level of attacks instead.

Add the self appointed decider of what is to be discussed, the US heavy bomber versus Luftwaffe fighter exchange rate, the way the damage changed in returning US bombers, was that due to a change in the intercepting fighter mix, an upgunning of the individual fighters like saying reducing or retiring rockets in favour of more cannon or something else and in what sort of proportions. Your contribution was an incorrect claim about US bomber gunner overclaims, why not the Luftwaffe ones as well, than declaring the whole thing was boring.

The contradiction of a higher percentage of B-24 losses made it back to friendly territory than B-17, how much of that is due to differences in crash worthiness? The evidence of the Luftwaffe quite consistently claiming 2 B-17 for every one actually shot down, versus 1.8 to 1 for B-24, and, along with a higher B-24 crew casualty rate, what that means.

What do you believe that you may (can) bring to this group and contribute to the knowledge base? What is your expertise? what have you been confident enough about to publish your views in a commercial environment where someone actually would pay real $$ to soak up your eloquence and brilliance and feel that value was received?

As for publishing material that is another, and now old, story and non aviation anyway. WWII era aircraft production, monthly, make, model, manufacturer/factory, daily orders of battle, daily operations, aircraft movements/shipments are references, not publishable book material.

You rubbed me the wrong way from your first post - for that indiscretion I apologize,

Thanks for the apology.

but for your part in this dialogue, why don't you lurk for awhile until you see an opportunity to contribute to the base knowledge of the group?

By the way I did check out the site before doing anything, and the response to that first posting indicates finding a couple of contradictory totals on web sites counts as research is the standard of this site, for some anyway and endorsed in silence versus the various interventions in this thread.

So you certainly know how the 9th Air Force received at least some fuel in France in stinking boring Jerricans. July 1944 the US places orders with the British for 500,000 jerricans a month for the Army and 310,000 jerricans a month for the USAAF. The USAAF policy is to use the cans once then release them to the army.

August 1944 as the 9th Air Force mounts operations from unprepared forward bases it found it could not release the 310,000 jerricans a month promised to the ground forces.

So tell us all, how the jerrican shortages impacted on the 9th Air Force operations, how much did the fuel problems affect the location of units and contribute to the overall decline of operational flying hours from 110,966 in the surge month of June 1944, to 54,225 hours in October, excluding transports. The twin engined bombers flew around a third the operational hours of June. Throw in non operational flying, again excluding transports, hours go from above 140,000 in May and June to 80,500 in October. August fuel consumption 52,000 short tons, October 25,000.

As you will undoubtedly know in June the bombers flew on 24 days, in October it was 15, the fighters 28 and 26. Of these June saw the bombers have 16+1 days of full + partial operations, October 5+6, Fighters 21+2 and 12+11.

Over to you, since this is obviously in the base knowledge of the group.

After that comes the difficulty of actually getting key air force supplies into France and what effect that had. For example the 35,000 tons of pierced steel planking and associated airfield construction materials in 21 ships that was sent to Europe, not unloaded, returned to the US and sent back to Europe on the next sailing.

 

[pbehn]

Was the notorious jerry can shortage unique to the P-51M?

 

[drgondog]

No it is the same approach, you make a mistake and it is time to move onto the claimed defects of other people.

I observe and ponder and question.

The stink I am seeing is someone gliding on other achievements, relying on bursts of hot air to keep aloft. I observe the self awarded right to lecture, but avoiding the responsibility of an accurate lecture. ‬I ponder the lack of self awareness, maybe it will be noticed every insult is returned, a thank you is sent for good data, the need to correct your mistakes, (given this forum we all do it, typo or incorrect memory or transcription) when reliable people correct their errors. And I question things based on documents I have and receive the lecture and a shut up message. This thread would have ended a long time ago if there had been a sorry for the typo message instead of the water pistol level of attacks instead.

Add the self appointed decider of what is to be discussed, the US heavy bomber versus Luftwaffe fighter exchange rate, the way the damage changed in returning US bombers, was that due to a change in the intercepting fighter mix, an upgunning of the individual fighters like saying reducing or retiring rockets in favour of more cannon or something else and in what sort of proportions. Your contribution was an incorrect claim about US bomber gunner overclaims, why not the Luftwaffe ones as well, than declaring the whole thing was boring.

The contradiction of a higher percentage of B-24 losses made it back to friendly territory than B-17, how much of that is due to differences in crash worthiness? The evidence of the Luftwaffe quite consistently claiming 2 B-17 for every one actually shot down, versus 1.8 to 1 for B-24, and, along with a higher B-24 crew casualty rate, what that means.


As for publishing material that is another, and now old, story and non aviation anyway. WWII era aircraft production, monthly, make, model, manufacturer/factory, daily orders of battle, daily operations, aircraft movements/shipments are references, not publishable book material.

Thanks for the apology.

By the way I did check out the site before doing anything, and the response to that first posting indicates finding a couple of contradictory totals on web sites counts as research is the standard of this site, for some anyway and endorsed in silence versus the various interventions in this thread.

So you certainly know how the 9th Air Force received at least some fuel in France in stinking boring Jerricans. July 1944 the US places orders with the British for 500,000 jerricans a month for the Army and 310,000 jerricans a month for the USAAF. The USAAF policy is to use the cans once then release them to the army.

August 1944 as the 9th Air Force mounts operations from unprepared forward bases it found it could not release the 310,000 jerricans a month promised to the ground forces.

So tell us all, how the jerrican shortages impacted on the 9th Air Force operations, how much did the fuel problems affect the location of units and contribute to the overall decline of operational flying hours from 110,966 in the surge month of June 1944, to 54,225 hours in October, excluding transports. The twin engined bombers flew around a third the operational hours of June. Throw in non operational flying, again excluding transports, hours go from above 140,000 in May and June to 80,500 in October. August fuel consumption 52,000 short tons, October 25,000.

As you will undoubtedly know in June the bombers flew on 24 days, in October it was 15, the fighters 28 and 26. Of these June saw the bombers have 16+1 days of full + partial operations, October 5+6, Fighters 21+2 and 12+11.

Over to you, since this is obviously in the base knowledge of the group.

After that comes the difficulty of actually getting key air force supplies into France and what effect that had. For example the 35,000 tons of pierced steel planking and associated airfield construction materials in 21 ships that was sent to Europe, not unloaded, returned to the US and sent back to Europe on the next sailing.

Oh, I'm sorry - do you have a point?

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The fact whatever your achievements elsewhere anything you write here needs to be double checked. Where is that article on 9th Air Force fuel supply? Your generosity in sharing your disinterest in some topics and the attempts to force that disinterest on others. The territory marking need to have the last word.

Was the notorious jerry can shortage unique to the P-51M?

The jerrican shortage was in 1944 and the P-51M was in 1945, so it is more about your ability to tell time. Pursuits take fewer casualties than assaults, the jerrican shortage forced the US to stop pursuit that much earlier, meaning fewer people came home. Interesting what some consider joke material.

 

[pbehn]

The jerrican shortage was in 1944 and the P-51M was in 1945, so it is more about your ability to tell time. Pursuits take fewer casualties than assaults, the jerrican shortage forced the US to stop pursuit that much earlier, meaning fewer people came home. Interesting what some consider joke material.

It was just my whimsical way of trying to establish what you were posting about and what it had to do with the thread, it turns out it was nothing to do with the P-51M.

 

[drgondog]

The fact whatever your achievements elsewhere anything you write here needs to be double checked. Where is that article on 9th Air Force fuel supply? Your generosity in sharing your disinterest in some topics and the attempts to force that disinterest on others. The territory marking need to have the last word.

The jerrican shortage was in 1944 and the P-51M was in 1945, so it is more about your ability to tell time. Pursuits take fewer casualties than assaults, the jerrican shortage forced the US to stop pursuit that much earlier, meaning fewer people came home. Interesting what some consider joke material.

Does your life revolve around being the most complete horse's ass conceivable? If so, You are extremely good. I dont recall Jerry Can/9th AF conversations from anyone but you. Is this a new variant of Forum Tourette's Syndrome?

 

[GrauGeist]

The fact whatever your achievements elsewhere anything you write here needs to be double checked. Where is that article on 9th Air Force fuel supply? Your generosity in sharing your disinterest in some topics and the attempts to force that disinterest on others. The territory marking need to have the last word.

The jerrican shortage was in 1944 and the P-51M was in 1945, so it is more about your ability to tell time. Pursuits take fewer casualties than assaults, the jerrican shortage forced the US to stop pursuit that much earlier, meaning fewer people came home. Interesting what some consider joke material.

Fairly sure the XP-51M never made it to Europe, thus would not have had anything to do with a "Jerry Can shortage".
Trying to tie the two together is rather odd.

It's also odd that claiming that a fuel shortage "made fewer people come home".
If they didn't have fuel to conduct a mission, then chances were good they wouldn't be lost.

Trying to guilt-shame by somehow reading that as a "joke" is also rather odd.

 

[pbehn]

As a point of order everyone in the allies had a jerrycan shortage, because jerrycans were made by the Germans. Allied cans initially were difficult to use, flimsy, almost impossible to stack, so captured jerrycans were valued Almost immediately the allies started making their own copies, which may have had the nick name jerrycan but were copies, the clue is in the name.

 

[GrauGeist]

As a point of order everyone in the allies had a jerrycan shortage, because jerrycans were made by the Germans. Allied cans initially were difficult to use, flimsy, almost impossible to stack, so captured jerrycans were valued Almost immediately the allies started making their own copies, which may have had the nick name jerrycan but were copies, the clue is in the name.

Great - now we're going to get a 2,000 word essay on the history of fuel cans...

 

[pbehn]

Great - now we're going to get a 2,000 word essay on the history of fuel cans...

Starting with the Beaker people.