What was the problem with the allison engine?

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But the British wound up using car building techniques to build the Merlin. When Ford of England took up the task of running the shadow factory at Trafford Park they had to redo the drawings and tolerances.

This is from Wiki but agrees with most other sources;

"Having an abandoned factory in Trafford Park, Ford of Britain was approached about the possibility of converting it into an aircraft engine production unit by Herbert Austin, who was in charge of the shadow factory plan. Building work on a new factory was started in May 1940 on a 118-acre (48 ha) site, while Ford engineers went on a fact finding mission to Derby. Their chief engineer commented to Sir Stanley Hooker that the tolerances used were far too wide for them, and so the 20,000 drawings would need to be redrawn to Ford tolerance levels, which took over a year.[65] Ford's factory was built with two distinct sections to minimise potential bomb damage, it was completed in May 1941 and bombed in the same month. At first, the factory had difficulty in attracting suitable labour, and large numbers of women, youths and untrained men had to be taken on. Despite this, the first Merlin engine came off the production line one month later[66] and it was building the engine at a rate of 200 per week by 1943, at which point the joint factories were producing 18,000 Merlins per year.[27] Ford's investment in machinery and the redesign resulted in the 10,000 man-hours needed to produce a Merlin dropping to 2,727 in three years, while unit cost fell from £6,540 in June 1941 to £1,180 by the war's end. In his autobiography Not much of an Engineer, Sir Stanley Hooker states: "... once the great Ford factory at Manchester started production, Merlins came out like shelling peas. The percentage of engines rejected by the Air Ministry was zero. Not one engine of the 30,400 produced was rejected ...".[67] "

I do have copy of Sir Stanley Hookers autobiography and this is essentially in agreement with what that says. R-R could take parts built to the drawings with wider tolerances and either hand select or hand fit them into tight tolerance assemblies using skilled labor. Ford was used to making parts to tighter tolerances and then using semi-skilled labor to assemble units using completely interchangeable parts. The end result (finished engine) may not be that much different.

One of the men from Ford said (basically) they could not make tens of thousands of cars per year at cheap prices without completely interchangeable parts that required no hand fitting.

That may be the basic "automotive technique" but with a bit tighter tolerances and inspection. "Vees for Victory" claims 20% of the Allison work force were inspectors and gives numbers for the number of operations needed to make a Cadillac car engine connecting road and an Allison rod (Cadillac sub-contracted crankshafts, rods, camshafts and other parts for Allison). It was considerably more for the Aircraft rod.
Both engines were subject to upgrades in material and construction techniques as production continued. Allison started shotpeening the crankshaft at some point after starting production and by some point in 1942 was nitriding the crankshaft. Thses later crankshafts were much longer lived than the early ones. Bearing materials may have changed. Merlins introduced Crankshafts that feed oil from both ends and other detail improvements. Late war engines could last 2-3 times longer between overhauls than early war engines inspite of increased power output.

Merlins definitely had a better supercharger set up once Hooker started working on them and so had better high altitude performance but I don't think either engine had much of an advantage over the other otherwise, including quality of build. And quality of build changed during the war for both engines so if one was ahead for a few months it might swap back again later.

I don't believe I have said anything bad about the Merlin. I just don't think, supercharger aside, the Allison was inferior to the Merlin to nay large degree and certainly not for many of the reasons bandied about on the internet.
 
Thank you Shortround, Interchangeability of parts is one of the phrases I recall from the article as well. a move away from craftsmanship to a more real world approach and true mass production.
I know that you weren't criticising the Merlin, it did have a very shaky start in the 1930's ! and like everything else it was not perfect.
The supercharger design gave it the edge and all I was trying to say that in wartime that 'edge' was all that mattered.
The Allison was a good motor handicapped by the US militaries misunderstandings.
Moral? Leave it to the engineers !!
Best wishes
John
 
Speaking of tolerances, I would guess that almost everyone has heard of the story of the Flying Tigers' engines, but in case y'all have not, here it is.

The British agreed to allow China to have 100 Tomahawk IIA's to equip the American Volunteer Group and get the later D's and E's in exchange.

But even back then it was common for governments to buy airplanes and engines separately. The British refused to give up 100 V-1710 C series engines to install in the fighters. They probably thought that they would use them as spares for the ones they already had, or to go in their Lightning I fighters.

Allison stepped up to the challenge of equipping the Chinese fighters, and did so magnificently. The company had plenty of 1710 parts that were manufactured and were found to be non-compliant. They got a team of top engineers and experienced technicians and hand built 100 engines, using the out-of-spec parts, carefully selecting and fitting each one. They added shims or bushings as required, and I would imagine also doing additional machining as required as required.

The Flying Tigers got those special built engines, and each one had virtually been built up like a race car engine (note: after all, we are talking people working in Indianapolis here), or "blueprinted."

And those engines built of rejected parts developed more power and used less gasoline than any stock C series V-1710. The Tigers said they could notice it too; their airplanes were noticeably faster than the P-40's they had been flying in the USAAF. One even said he saw them hit 375 mph in level flight.

So we slipped a ringer in on the Japanese; very experienced pilots of the caliber of Boyington, Howard, and Hill, flying hot rod airplanes. So solly, sons of Nippon!

And I am glad y'all found the info I provided interesting.

I would also like thank Shortround for the info he provided. I have all kinds of reference books but I had not thought about the superchargers of the V-1710 and Merlin being different sized.
 
Allison down low....

I have really enjoyed this thread and I appreciate all the well thought out responses.

I am currently reading "The Building of the P-51 Mustang" by O'Leary and it has some interesting information on Allison vs Merlin at low altitude. Please note I am not saying one is better than the other or anything like that, I am just passing along some information that I found interesting.

There is a report written by Charles F Born, Brigadier General, CSC, Asst. Chief of Staff, A-3 and dated 26 August 1943 on "British Army Cooperation Tactical Employment of the Mustang I (P-51)"

This report states the Allison is preferred for their missions (low level daylight intrusion raid "Rhubarbs") because the Allison will cruise at a fuel efficient 1100 RPM while the Merlin is very rough under 1600 RPM.

It also states that the British have operated the Allison at 72 inches for as much as 20 minutes without damage, the Allison is averaging 1500 hours between bearing failures compared to 500-600 for the Merlin, and that the Allison will drag the airplane home even with a bearing ruined.

The report basically states the Allison powered P-51A is better low level fighter-intruder and the Allison is a big part of "why".

That report seems to agree with the "smoother running" and "more durable" comments on this thread.

Also in the book is picture of a F-6A (photo recon P-51A) that was used on D-Day even though Merlin Mustangs were available, supposedly because of its low level performance.

I love both engines. They are just different with each having its own strengths and weaknesses. I do feel that the Allison got a raw deal. Many people act as if the Mustang single-handedly won the war and that the P-51 was garbage until the Merlin was installed. Therefore the Allison must be a bad engine. Not true of course.

Again, thanks to all. Great thread.

WJP
 
It is quite clear from tests relating to the maximum range tests of both the Spitfire and the Merlin Mustang that the highish minimum cruising rpm limit of the Merlin (1600 -1800 rpm) substantially reduced maximum range at the most economical airspeed as especially the Spitfire required very low boost (well below 0 boost) at 1800 rpm to achieve that IAS and thus an inefficient low boost/high rpm (relatively speaking) combination was used. I received data from David Birch of RRHT on the issue and what modifications were required in the Merlin to allow running down to about 1200 rpm but unfortunately I lost the details when my HD crashed.
 
I think that the difference between the RR Merlin and the Allison V-1710 is partly due to the different circumstances of the manufacturers and their countries.

RR, and the other British engine manufacturers, were heavily funded by the government in the 1930s, and the situation in Europe required a certain level of urgency. The Merlin was probably put into service earlier than it should have been, but the RAF needed aircraft, particularly high performance fighters, for a potential war.

Allison, on the other hand, was drip fed funds from the US government, who was very much an isolationist government in the 1930s. Recovering from the depression also reduced funds available for development.

Note that the Continental IV-1430 program started not long after the V-1710, but didn't get into production before the end of the war. Continental were drip fed funds and didn't invest their own money in the program, so progress was slow. It was similar for Allison, in that government money for development was tight, and they were directed as to what to develop.

RR had been active in the Schneider Trophy the last couple of times it ran, and used supercharger boost to achieve the performance. This is also the road they took through the war, particularly on the Merlin. High boost dictated lower compression ratios. Allison initially ran higher compression ratios, which restricted the boost that could be used, and thus horsepower. Later Allison dropped the CR and increased boost for turbocharged and two stage engines.

Also, later in the war Allison tested a V-1710 fitted with a two stage supercharger from a 60-series Merlin, the power and torque curves being almost identical with the Merlin. Basically the power that either could produce was down to the air that could be put through it, and the supercharger was the detrmining factor in that.

Most of the war the Allison suffered for having a single speed supercharger. In fact all single stage engines were single speed. RR went to two speed suerchargers early in the war, and that contunued with the two stage engines. Having a multiple speed drive for the single speed supercharger, or a variable speed drive, would have made the single stage altitude rated (turbocharged engines were sea level rated) engine a more useful and competitive unit.

There were a few areas of design where the Allison could be considered to be superior to the Merlin. But the potential superiority was not realised during the war, Allison's design ability being trumped by Rolls-Royce's development ability and determination, and I think it would be fair to say that the Merlin's legendary status is built on the many roles it played during the war, and its influence on the outcome was arguably greater than any other engine of the period.
 
Thanks everyone for an amazing technical input.

The Merlin engine certainly needs no defense, it has its war record to do that but Allison seems to be generally considered a second rate brother to the Merlin due to its replacement in the Mustang. This discussion has certainly answered my question and, in my mind, raise my opinion of the Allison. I read somewhere that the US paid royalties for the Packard Merlins and wanted the Allison in the P-82 because of that. What was the cost of these royalties?

I have a slight deviation of this thread, although closely related. It seems that the real hero here, when it comes to the Mustang, was the supercharger. Where did the Packard Merlin supercharger come from, was it built in the US under patent? Who manufactured it? Was it modified in any way. I was under the impression it was different from the British Merlin engines, is that true? What is the story here.
 
It seems that the real hero here, when it comes to the Mustang, was the supercharger. Where did the Packard Merlin supercharger come from, was it built in the US under patent? Who manufactured it? Was it modified in any way. I was under the impression it was different from the British Merlin engines, is that true? What is the story here.

I always assumed that the Packard supercharger was built by Packard under licence from the Rolls-Royce design. Some Packard Merlins used a different supercharger gear system (which was lighter, IIRC) to the standard Rolls Royce system. In any case, the supercharger itself was the same.
 
Thanks everyone for an amazing technical input.

The Merlin engine certainly needs no defense, it has its war record to do that but Allison seems to be generally considered a second rate brother to the Merlin due to its replacement in the Mustang. This discussion has certainly answered my question and, in my mind, raise my opinion of the Allison. I read somewhere that the US paid royalties for the Packard Merlins and wanted the Allison in the P-82 because of that. What was the cost of these royalties?

I believe that Packard Merlin production stopped at the end of the war, and that was partly to do with royalties. The P-82 got Allisons when the Merlins ran out.
 
"The Merlin was the most successful aircraft engine of the WW2 era." Hmmmmmmmm! All well and good to be nationalistic. I expect that most of us are nationalistic to some degree.
BUT! During the fighter conference in 1944, pilots were asked to vote on which engine inspired the most confidence. 79% voted for the R2800, 17% for the Merlin and 1% for the V1710. Perhaps we should amend the statement to : The Merlin was the most successful inline liquid cooled engine in WW2?
 
The people that voted at 1944 fighter conference were overwhelmingly from USA, and mostly flew planes powered by R-2800. No wonder voting was as it was.
 
Can I ask the background of the pilots? I mention this as I would expect a USN pilot to go for the R2800 and any USAAF that flew aircraft powered by the R2800, and any P51 pilot or RAF pilot to go for the Merlin.

People understandably have faith in what they have experienced and trusted.

I should add that I am not knocking the R2800 or upping the Merlin, both were probably the class act in the radial and inline design
 
Allison, on the other hand, was drip fed funds from the US government, who was very much an isolationist government in the 1930s. Recovering from the depression also reduced funds available for development.


I you haven't read David Brinkley's "Washington goes to War", I recommend you do. I'm sure other books touch on the same subject, but this one is short and to the point. It really gives the reader an understanding of the small size and small mindedness of the U.S. government in the 1930s.

One of the aspects I try to keep in mind regarding the topics we talk about in this forum is time. It is amazing how much technical development and implementation occurred such a short period of time.

This is a great thread and another example of why; I always hope to be educated more than educating when participating in these discussions.
 
"The Merlin was the most successful aircraft engine of the WW2 era." Hmmmmmmmm! All well and good to be nationalistic. I expect that most of us are nationalistic to some degree.
BUT! During the fighter conference in 1944, pilots were asked to vote on which engine inspired the most confidence. 79% voted for the R2800, 17% for the Merlin and 1% for the V1710. Perhaps we should amend the statement to : The Merlin was the most successful inline liquid cooled engine in WW2?

No, with respect, the Merlin was the most successful aero-engine,its not all about being English either.
It powered most of the significant WW2 aircraft and secured our liberty.
I have the utmost respect for the P51 but, the Americans could not produce an engine of sufficient performance in time for when the P51 was needed most.
Cheers
John
 
I think that the difference between the RR Merlin and the Allison V-1710 is partly due to the different circumstances of the manufacturers and their countries.

RR, and the other British engine manufacturers, were heavily funded by the government in the 1930s, and the situation in Europe required a certain level of urgency. The Merlin was probably put into service earlier than it should have been, but the RAF needed aircraft, particularly high performance fighters, for a potential war.

Allison, on the other hand, was drip fed funds from the US government, who was very much an isolationist government in the 1930s. Recovering from the depression also reduced funds available for development.

Note that the Continental IV-1430 program started not long after the V-1710, but didn't get into production before the end of the war. Continental were drip fed funds and didn't invest their own money in the program, so progress was slow. It was similar for Allison, in that government money for development was tight, and they were directed as to what to develop.

RR had been active in the Schneider Trophy the last couple of times it ran, and used supercharger boost to achieve the performance. This is also the road they took through the war, particularly on the Merlin. High boost dictated lower compression ratios. Allison initially ran higher compression ratios, which restricted the boost that could be used, and thus horsepower. Later Allison dropped the CR and increased boost for turbocharged and two stage engines.

Also, later in the war Allison tested a V-1710 fitted with a two stage supercharger from a 60-series Merlin, the power and torque curves being almost identical with the Merlin. Basically the power that either could produce was down to the air that could be put through it, and the supercharger was the detrmining factor in that.

Most of the war the Allison suffered for having a single speed supercharger. In fact all single stage engines were single speed. RR went to two speed suerchargers early in the war, and that contunued with the two stage engines. Having a multiple speed drive for the single speed supercharger, or a variable speed drive, would have made the single stage altitude rated (turbocharged engines were sea level rated) engine a more useful and competitive unit.

There were a few areas of design where the Allison could be considered to be superior to the Merlin. But the potential superiority was not realised during the war, Allison's design ability being trumped by Rolls-Royce's development ability and determination, and I think it would be fair to say that the Merlin's legendary status is built on the many roles it played during the war, and its influence on the outcome was arguably greater than any other engine of the period.

On the money there.
Well said
Cheers
John
 
No, with respect, the Merlin was the most successful aero-engine,its not all about being English either.
It powered most of the significant WW2 aircraft and secured our liberty.
I have the utmost respect for the P51 but, the Americans could not produce an engine of sufficient performance in time for when the P51 was needed most.
Cheers
John

I seem to recall a couple of engines from Pratt Whitney. Think they were the R-1830 and R-2800.
 
I read somewhere that the US paid royalties for the Packard Merlins and wanted the Allison in the P-82 because of that. What was the cost of these royalties?

The US did pay royalties but I think the amount changed at the end of the war. England being totally strapped for cash. Royalties per engine went up, Allison gets 2 stage supercharger working, (please note we are talking about late 1946/early 1947 here), USAAF doesn't really want to depend on foreign engines (although many jet engines are based of the English ones.
 

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