What would you change?

[schwarzpanzer]

Slightly silly maybe, but why not have all the engineers working on one or two project(s)?

Ie Me, BV, FW etc on one sole fighter?

He, Junkers etc on another, or with the above?

BMW, DB, Maybach etc on one engine?

(Also could be used for tanks?)

Forget bombing IMHO, other than for defense (against tanks, ships etc)

The 75mm would do the job there?

Also forget the APCR ammo for it, have AP/APHE or APFDS if not?

Also give the Me262 the Mk108(?) instead of the Mk103(?)


I thought manoeverabilty at high speeds was the Me109's best point carpenoctem1689?

 

[cheddar cheese]

Id have taken the Italians more seriously and aided their designs earlier on...

 

[Udet]

Schwarz:

Your last posting is precisely one point I´ve focused on for a while now.

The large number of German aviation engineers/designers working independently -some of them seeking political positioning and glory- had a true negative effect in the outcome of the war.

Such working method adopted in the military industry of the Reich was something a nation like Germany simply could not afford.

Why? Several sound reasons:

(i) A small nation with limited access to natural resources/raw materials.

(ii) Furthermore, after mid 1941 Germany is located in the very centre of the geography of war, complicating even more the access to the necessary natural resources.

(iii) Right: Messerschmitt, Focke Wulf, Junkers, Heinkel, Dornier, Henschel, Blom und Voss...working independently.

(iv) Unlike the USSR enjoying the benefits of the Lend Lease program relieving soviet military industry from the tremendous pressure of having to produce absolutely all (100%) of its war items, Germany had to produce absolutely everything, in a limited space, with limited resources and -again- right in the very centre of the geography of war, within the reach of fleets of enemy heavy bombers.

(v) Need more sound evidence? 1944 saw the Germans producing a number of bombers when the primary requirement indicated "FIGHTERS". How many thousands of fighters of the latest models could have been produced with the resources alloted to produce bombers during such period?


I provide a case: what could have been produced with the raw materials, parts and laborce used to produce the rough 1,300 Me 410s delivered during the war? We are talking about 2,600 engines.

2,600 Fw 190s? 2,600 Bf 109s? More jets? More Ta 152s?

Now we know the military industry of the Reich produced more of everything precisely when the heavy bomber offensive was at its peak.

What could have happened if Germany had adopted a more centralized and planned designing and producting policy for its armament industry?

 

[wmaxt]

Slightly silly maybe, but why not have all the engineers working on one or two project(s)?

First, Because you lose the divergent thinking to produce major advancements.

Second, Very creative people don't normaly work well together unless their goal is well defined and mutualy agreed on and well led by someone respected by all those involved. As soon as the concepts diverge the partnership is over.

Third, Seperate companies don't like to build someone elses aircraft. NA didn't want to produce P-40s and came up with the P-51. Which is part of the reason the Fw-190 came about Tank knew he could build a plane better than the Bf-109.

Example : had Tank been subjucated to Messerschmit in '39 The Fw-190 would never have been built and in Udet's scenario the Me-262 would never have been either because:

a, The 109 would have been the focus.
b, A completly different aircraft would have been developed (from the Me-262) due to Tanks influence, likely with a piston engine because Tank's reluctance to go to a powerplant so unreliable as the jets were.
c, Tank prefered aircraft that were robust, more hevily armed and armored and finaly manufactured in pieces and assembled close to the point of usage. Messerschmit wanted the lightest plane with a large engine everything else was second priority.

wmaxt

 

[Erich]

no, actually the jet revised, would have replaced all prop driven a/c

 

[schwarzpanzer]

cheddar cheese:

I heard Italians did good radials, then threw all that research/expertise away pursuing inlines.

Udet:

2,600 Fw 190s?

That makes a great point, really rams it home.


When I self-criticised however, I realised that eg. thousands(?) of He162's were ready, but lacked pilots.

Is manpower an issue here?

If so, if things had been done differently in Barbarossa, about 75% of Soviets would have fought for Hitler against Stalin.


wmaxt:

Standardisation could be putting all your eggs in one basket, but new bomber designs were unecessary and Heinkel and Junkers proved that they could design good fighter airframes/engines respectively.

Very creative people don't normaly work well together

Well, I like bouncing ideas off other people, finding what I screwed up, seeing what they'd change etc.

Brainstorming can also be effective at the 1st stage (requirements).

- But, of course, that was Hiler/Goerings level of 'expertise'.

Seperate companies don't like to build someone elses aircraft

You're not kidding! There was a proper scrap between BV and Me staff over the 155 IIRC?

a, The 109 would have been the focus.

That's if Udet was completely in charge, which is unlikely?

- He screwed something up IIRC? - Forget what, sorry.

b, A completly different aircraft would have been developed (from the Me-262) due to Tanks influence, likely with a piston engine because Tank's reluctance to go to a powerplant so unreliable as the jets were.

Would that have been so bad? - he had a point IMHO, just think at what a BV155/Ta152 sister plane would be like. 8)

c, Tank prefered aircraft that were robust, more hevily armed and armored and finaly manufactured in pieces and assembled close to the point of usage. Messerschmit wanted the lightest plane with a large engine everything else was second priority.

Kinda agree with both, Ta more than Me though.

 

[Udet]

mr. max:

Where on planet earth did I ever come even close to suggest German engineers and designers should workin on one or two craft?

That was pretty much Schwarz idea, wans´t it?


Engineer Sergei Ilyushin had a gun put into his head and was given the choices of producing more IL-2s or be (who knows) shot or sent to a bolshevik extermination camp. The outcome? A massive production of a ground-attack (crappy) plane; a very helpful thing for the soviet war effort. (again with the fundamental aid of Lend Lease, a luxury Germany could not even think about)

German armament industry, again, while increasing the production of tanks, artillery, fighters, ammo, guns, rockets, missiles, etc. precisely during 1944, did not work in a fashion that would meet the requirements of the war effort of the Reich.


The Bf 109 (from E´s to K´s)/Fw 190 (first Antons, later Doras and Ta-152s) combination, reinforced by Me 262´s is more than enough to squeeze the living hell out of both RAF, USAAF and VVS...just in way bigger numbers please.

If JG 3 and JG 300 could have launched 180 Fw 190 A-8/R8 Sturmböcke with the top cover escort of 220 Bf 109 G-6/AS everyday during late 1944 to face the massive heavy bomber boxes and their hundreds of escorts, I guarantee you an unprecedented butchery of USAAF bombers and escorts and also having those few crews making it back to base going straight into the madhouse.


Want to produce a complete lists of all models produced by the several German aircraft companies? Please do not forget to include all those models who were produced in modest numbers (i.e. Me 210, Me 410, Ju 188, etc.) as well as those who did not go beyond protypes but also got tested. You will see what being messy is when all you shoudl have had was order and methodic planning and control of resources.

A brief summary:

(i) Messerschmitt:


Single engined fighters: Bf 109, Me 209, Me 309.

Twin engined fighters: Bf 110, Me 210, Me 410

Jet: Me 262

Rocket Interceptor: Me 163 (Komet)

Transport: Me 323.


(ii) Junkers:

Dive bomber: Ju 87, Ju 187 (prototype-never produced)

Bombers (medium): Ju 88 (first as bomber, later as nachtjäger), Ju 188, Ju 288, Ju 388

Transports/bombers/recon: Ju 290, Ju 390, Ju 52 (also Ju 86 althoug most were produced previous to the start of WWII)

Jet (bomber): Ju 287


(iii) Focke Wulf:

Single engined fighters: Fw 190 A´s, Fw 190 D´s, Ta 152.

Twin engined fighters/bomber: Ta 154., Fw 187

Transport/recon/bomber: Fw 200, Fw 189



(iv) Dornier:

Fighter: Do 335.

Bombers: Do 17, Do 215, Do 217, Do 317.

*Plus some seaplane models.


(v) Heinkel:

Single engined fighter: He 100, He 112.

Twin engined (night) fighter: He 219

Bomber (medium): He 111

Bomber (heavy): He 177, He 277

Jet (fighter): He 280, He 162.


I know there are cases like in the Ju 88s, Ju 188s, Ju 288s and Ju388s where we would be talking about a very similar -if not the same- fuselage with different cockpits, engines, and equipment. Still, such works did consume resources and time, didn´t they?

I am not mentioning Henschel, Arado and Blom und Voss (the former with the Blom Voss 155 single engined fighter).

Finally, I concur there Erich.

 

[wmaxt]

no, actually the jet revised, would have replaced all prop driven a/c

Eventualy yes, no doubt but Messerschmitt jets would still have been both delayed and different if Tank had been involved. There also would have been more emphasis on piston engined aircraft until jet engines were more developed.

My point, which I guess I didn't get accross, was that to have put several of these groups together would have been a net loss for the German aircraft industry in advancements and diversity of new concepts. That said, the political allowance of several aircraft (the 163 for example) bled resources and should have been limited to reasearch and then moved on. The US was just as bad in some cases.

wmaxt

 

[carpenoctem1689]

thought manoeverabilty at high speeds was the Me109's best point carpenoctem1689?

Really? because i thought that the stick on the 109 got really heavy, and in the cramped cockpit the pilot had trouble throwing the plane around. At the speeds the plane could operate at, it wasnt as manouverable as the 190.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

Might be, thought that was it's strong point though?

 

[carpenoctem1689]

How could that be a strong point, when the aircraft took more strength to handle at high speeds? wearing down the pilot faster, and making him less responsive, and thereby easier to shoot down.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

Because Willy Me was obsessed with high-wing loadings.

 

[lesofprimus]

If JG 3 and JG 300 could have launched 180 Fw 190 A-8/R8 Sturmböcke with the top cover escort of 220 Bf 109 G-6/AS everyday during late 1944 to face the massive heavy bomber boxes and their hundreds of escorts, I guarantee you an unprecedented butchery of USAAF bombers and escorts

Sends shivers down my spine..... To think of the carnage.........

 

[Erich]

pick up JG 300 volume which I am reading now and Udets statements about Luftw numbers was going to be a reality unless P-51's could intervene which they did thank God. some of the most intense reading I have done in a very long time is held within the pages of the fine book..........ok i am OT sorry

personally I would of continued the plans for ground to air rockets at convenient locations to stall US heavy bomber attacks

 

[Udet]

Les:

After some years of reading and hearing, I am quite confident when saying had the Reich had a more coherent and centralized aircraft production program, the jagdgeschwadern in Reichsverteidigung duties could have had at least twice the single-engine fighters to form more and larger welcome committees for USAAF heavy bombers and escorts.


As I said, the Bf-109 and Fw 190 combination to deal with the allied air forces is about perfect. A massive lie appears when you have allied guys bursting out to claim all their late fighters comfortably outclassed all late German fighters. Flat and plain lie. (Quite actually, "outclassed" is a term that has been abused by allied historians).

It was not even necessary to numerically surpass the RAF and USAAF from 1943 on -by the way, it was also impossible-.

A 3 vs. 1 average numerical inferiority can be handled by the German pilots. However, when we referr to cases of a 10 vs 1 or 15 vs 1, the most amateurish rookie can come out with the most likely of the scenarios.

Not even during many of such engagements of overwhelming numerical superiority did the swarms of Mustangs or Jugs come close to catch all German fighters, so it is either German machines were at least equal -if not superior- or German pilots were not as "ill-trained" as allied propaganda has it. An "outclassed" plane -to play their game of words a bit- will not be able to find its out against "infinitely superior" craft such as the toys of the USAAF, much less in view of the terrorific numerical inferiority.



Did you see the list of aviation companies and all models they produced?
It was a mess. Right, some of those planes made only prototypes and were not mass produced; still many of those planes were produced in numbers that I´d not dare to address as "modest".

Example:

Some 1,400 Me 410´s* were produced; add the rough 300 machines of the flunked Me 210, and we are talking about 1,700 twin engined fighters produced during such period of time when the front made a clear demand: SEND SINGLE ENGINE FIGHTERS.
Production of the Me 410 was finally stopped in late 1944!

Raw materials, spare parts, specialists and technicians, laborforce, pilots, fuel, ammo...devoted to produce aircraft that would have minimum impact, if any, in the war effort.

I concur with the notion of how fearsome the Bf 110 became as night-fighter. But the Bf 110 in day-light action against swarms of P-51´s and P-47´s?

Any day of 1944 when 10 Bf 110´s were lost against the escorts implied the probable loss of 20 men that could have manned a Fw 190 or Bf 109.

I´d rather have 20 Bf-109 G-6/AS as Sturmböck top cover slamming Mustangs, than 10 Bf-110´s getting intercepted.

The He 111 was still being produced in 1944. What the hell for? Also the Heinkel 177, and the debate and production in limited numbers of the four engined He 277...

To add strenght to such view (Erich) if I recall correctly JG 300 and JG 301 were more powerful in terms of avaiable fighters and pilotes in January 1945 than they ever came close to be during 1944; don´t the allies say the Luftwaffe had been finished off in 1944?

Erich, please your help, JG 300 and JG 301 had -mid January 1945- nearly 400 single engined fighters available. That, with the aircraft production mess I have described.

I´d change the planning and structure of the German aircraft production program.

The allies have very capable fighters in 1944. Germans also have very capable planes to combat them.

But please... please, Fw190s and Bf 109s in way bigger numbers!

*Note:

Unlike the 210, The Me 410 was a very capable machine. He allies get cozy in the comfort of their fast track recipe "no match against our single engine fighters". What they say is the Germans were uncapable of producing a competent twin engined fighter to combat enemy fighters, while the claim to have had marvels such as the P-38 and the Mossie. Too bad I do not have sufficient information on the Me 410 to counterbarrage their comments. (Sorry for the off-topic remark)

 

[Jabberwocky]

Udet,

aircraft production numbers were never the problem for the Reich. It was the lack of A) Trained pilots B) Fuel and C) Transoprt capacity for logistics that sunk to LuftWaffe.

The USAAF had a field day in 1944 and 1945 straffing hundreds of fighters sitting on airfields that couldn't move because they didn't have the pilots to fly them or the fuel to get them into the air.

I don't think that a DOUBLING of the single engine strength of the LuftWaffe is really going to help their situation in 1943-1945 against anything but unescorted daylight raids.

Look at the strenght of their opponents; From the East you have the Russian Airforce, which is slowly becoming resurgent. From the South you have RAF Mediterranean command and the US 15th Air Force. From the West you have the 8th and 9th US Army Air Forces, Air Defence Great Britain and 2TAF. Put all that together and the numbers are tilted against them.

You also argue that the LW could deal with a 3 to 1 ratio and achieve victory. Yet, most 8th Air Force commands had kill ratios well in their favour even the ones serving when the LuftWaffe day fighter strenght was far strnger than that of the long range escorts. After all, the escorts didn't outnumber the attackers over Germany until post D-Day. The defenders had all the advantages; Radar, local bases, formation concentration.


The image you paint of swarms of US pilots engaging ameturish rookies is almost laughable. In fact, often it was the opposite, with strong 'gaggles' of German aircraft going up against green escort formations like the 78th or the 352nd. In mid 1943 the USAAF could put, at most, 3 groups of P-47s onto an escort mission to the German border. That is one cover group, one escort group and one withdrawl group to cover a formation 50 miles long. At any one time there were a mere 3 squadrons covering the bomber formations. But somehow they managed to come out ahead against their German opponents.

 

[Udet]

The USAAF had a field day in 1944. It had been a while since I last found someone singing the same old gospel.

What else Jabberwocky? Did allied fighter pilots bring pop corn and photos of semi-naked women in their cockpits to jerk off while engaging the Luftwaffe in 1944?

Laughable? After reading your last posting, a new dimension of what laughable can be appeared on the horizon.

 

[wmaxt]

Udet,

Eric pointed out that 53% of the very best German pilots lived through the war.
~13,000 German planes, primarily fighters, were shot down (AAF numbers revised after German records were available).
Including Bomber pilots the Luftwaffe had what ~3,000 pilots in '42. Even if 50% of the experianced pilots lived thats only 1,500 living through the war. Who were the other 11,500 pilots? Did they just crash at the sight of the AAF planes so they couldn't be shot down?

The AAF claims only ~7000 on the ground what happened to the rest of the ~50,000 109/190s produced or are you saying the Russians got More than the 30,000 109/190s the AAF didn't claim? I didn't even mention the rest of the Allies kills. If the AAF didn't shoot down any German planes where did they go? The number crushed at the end of the war were primarily those few that were not delivered less than 4/5,000.

The Germans fought a gallant fight but in '44/'45 they were overwelmed and after the spring of '44 they were at best just trying to cope.

wmaxt

 

[Jabberwocky]

The "field day" I was refering to in 1944/1945 was to ground straffing not to air to air combat.

In 1944 the 8th Air Force began a policy of egaging the LuftWafe where ever it could be found. Either in the air or on the ground. As a result they started low level operations on the return legs of escorts, hoping to find fighters returning with low fuel or in their landing patterns. They also began the tactic of ground straffing enemy fighter and bomber, which netted very good results.

For example, Lightnings of the 49th Fighter Group scored 60 ground straffing kills and 29 in the air during September 1944. In one sweep in April 8th, 1944 the 20th Fighter Group claimed 7 in the air and 21 aircraft on the ground at Salzweldel, about 140 kilometern North-West of Berlin. The 56th Fighter Group claimed 91 destroyed and 80 damaged on a ground straffing spree at Eggebeck in Denmark on the 28th of March 1945.

So the question is, why were there such numbers of aircraft being destroyed on the ground? Surely, it couldn't be because the LuftWaffe lacked necessary numbers of pilots and fuel? Maybe they were all decoys?

In reality, the LuftWaffe had sufficient fighters to meet its needs. What it didn't have were sufficient battlefield resources in terms of pilots, fuel and logistics to put those fighters in the air in sufficient numbers to oppose the Allies. Pilots of JG2 reported that instead of repairing battle-damaged machines, service units would just give pilots factory fresh machines and leave damaged aircraft alone.

The LuftWaffe was beaten at the operational level as well as the tactical level. Yes, the experten were amazing pilots with hundreds of kills. Yes, they flew excellent planes. However, Allied operational methods of good training, high pilot rotation, defined and limited duration combat tours and excellent logistic services meant that they would control the airspace through a combination of talent, machines that were the par of their opponents and excellent teamwork.

Parsonally, I would rather fight in a squadron that was well trained with a few aces than a squadron that was wildly variable in its training with 1 or 2 hundred kill experten. [/u]

 

[P38 Pilot]

Quote:


If JG 3 and JG 300 could have launched 180 Fw 190 A-8/R8 Sturmböcke with the top cover escort of 220 Bf 109 G-6/AS everyday during late 1944 to face the massive heavy bomber boxes and their hundreds of escorts, I guarantee you an unprecedented butchery of USAAF bombers and escorts


Sends shivers down my spine..... To think of the carnage.........
_________________

My god...It would've been a slaughter fest every day!