Are you sure you're not talking about armoured fuel tanks, because according to the Lancaster Pilot's Notes, the tanks were self-sealing?
Which aircraft would you cancel?
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Are you sure you're not talking about armoured fuel tanks, because according to the Lancaster Pilot's Notes, the tanks were self-sealing?
I probably didn't express that very well above, apologies for the confusion. The discussion was about fitting 'Bransom fuel tanks' which were presumably an improvement on the tanks fitted at that time which were self-sealing. I have not been able to find out what a Bransom fuel tank was, but it must have been heavy, maybe it was armoured? Is this a typo? a company called Branson (presumably not the beardy one) makes fuel cells today.
The suggestion for sub-dividing the large inner tank was to minimise fuel loss if one part was damaged. It was thought of as a means of enabling more damaged aircraft to make it home.
The oil tanks were not self sealing at the time as the other subject of discussion was 'the need for self sealing material in oil tanks'
(Minutes of a meeting between Operational Research Section Bomber Command (ORSBC) and Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) on 8th October 1943.)
On 29th December self sealing fuel hoses were discussed. There were constant efforts to reduce the vulnerability of all Bomber Commands aircraft, but almost all involved some kind of weight penalty and it was this, rather than cost, that Bomber Command often found unacceptable.
Cheers
Steve
The suggestion for sub-dividing the large inner tank was to minimise fuel loss if one part was damaged. It was thought of as a means of enabling more damaged aircraft to make it home.
The oil tanks were not self sealing at the time as the other subject of discussion was 'the need for self sealing material in oil tanks'
(Minutes of a meeting between Operational Research Section Bomber Command (ORSBC) and Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) on 8th October 1943.)
On 29th December self sealing fuel hoses were discussed. There were constant efforts to reduce the vulnerability of all Bomber Commands aircraft, but almost all involved some kind of weight penalty and it was this, rather than cost, that Bomber Command often found unacceptable.
Cheers
Steve
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Do you have any more information on this? Everything I have indicates the oil tanks were always self-sealing.
Earliest being AFDU trials on the Lancaster I (April 1942).
Well, earliest being the Manchester in some respects ...
Self-sealing tanks means both a weight penalty and a tank volume penalty. Both have a negative impact on range.
Just the minutes from that meeting. It seems odd to be discussing, quote, "the need for self sealing material in oil tanks" in 1943 if the tanks were already self sealing. It's possible they were discussing something other than the Lancaster.
I may know more later as the minutes are in a larger file 'Damage to Aircraft by Enemy Action' (AIR 14/1746) in our national archives, a copy of which I am hoping to get sometime after Xmas. It depends on TNA's estimate of the cost of a copy, otherwise I'll be waiting until I can make a visit
Cheers
Steve
Doesn't ring a bell with me either. Experimental type? I just have;
CIMA 50T
CIMA 397H
Semape
Sorbo
Sorbo 1/4"
ICI
Linatex
Obviously more investigation is required!
BTW the copy of the pilot's notes I have for the Lancaster, whilst specifically mentioning that the fuel tanks are self sealing, does not mention the same for oil tanks stating simply 'Each engine has its own tank capacity 37½ gallons of oil with 4½ gallons air space.' Hardly conclusive either way, but an odd omission if they were self sealing.
Cheers
Steve
BTW the copy of the pilot's notes I have for the Lancaster, whilst specifically mentioning that the fuel tanks are self sealing, does not mention the same for oil tanks stating simply 'Each engine has its own tank capacity 37½ gallons of oil with 4½ gallons air space.' Hardly conclusive either way, but an odd omission if they were self sealing.
Cheers
Steve
Check the Flight Engineer's insert. It specifies self-sealing there. In my copies anyway.
Same here, but dated May 1944, which would be quick work if the Lancaster was being discussed in October 1943. 7 months and no mention of a modification? I think the discussion must have pertained to other types, not the Lancaster.
Cheers
Steve
wuzak
Captain
Way back I said the Halifax should have been cancelled at the earliest opportunity and have just stumbled across some interesting statistics compiled in a report entitled 'Comparison of Aircraft Types'.
Aircraft. Casualty Rate. Bomb Load/Sortie. Bombs Dropped/Missing Aircraft. 'Cost'
Lancaster 3.5% 3.95 tons 112.6 tons 20 man months/ton bombs dropped
Halifax 5.4% 2.20 tons 45.4 tons 60 man months/ton bombs dropped
Mosquito 2.3% 0.68 tons 29.8 tons 20 man months/ton bombs dropped.
Based on all operational sorties from 1st June to 15th September 1943 and a Mosquito bomb load of 4,000lbs.
It's hardly surprising that Harris wanted to ditch the Halifax and shoot Handley Page
Cheers
Steve
The Mosquito figures show 0.68 ton per sortie. If that was a short tone it equates to 1,360lb/sortie, and a long ton 1,523lb/sortie. I would suggest that was with the 2,000lb maximum bomb load.
But the interesting figure is the man/months per tone dropped being the same for Mosquitoes and Lancasters.
Never.
I agree. Probably a typo in or mis-reading of, the original.
It would be the long ton (which it would always have written as simply 'ton') used as the unit by the ORSBC and just about everyone else in the UK (and Empire/Commonwealth/Dominions) up until metrication.
It was only our American friends who knocked 12lbs of the hundredweight and ended up with a short ton
Before the days of the Health and Safety Executive, 1 cwt (112lbs or 8 stone) was considered the weight that one man could reasonably carry! I distinctly remember coal being delivered in 1 cwt sacks which a single coal man would lift off a lorry (I remember a smallish flat bed), carry through the front gate and tip into the coal cellar.
Cheers
Steve
I understand that the 'short' ton was also used in Canada. You learn something everyday!!
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The about same weight (50 kg) was also here the 'good measure' - the portland cement came in such wiehgt bags, as well as the wheat flour. Nowadays it is mostly up to 25 kg.
wuzak
Captain
It is a wonderful system where a hundred weight is not a hundred of anything, but 112....
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
Then you have the Long hundredweight of 120 pounds which was used in German speaking areas.
But which pound do we mean. At one time in England you had the Avourdupis, Ell, Troy, Merchant, Tower, London, Yorkshire pounds. Then there was Irish pond, Scottish Trone, French Livre, German Pfund, Russian Funt, Scandinavian Skalpund. I am not surprised the cwt is 112 pounds I am surprised it isnt 6,001 Toads or 143 Eagles.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Ah, memories of the CWT (Hundredweight) !
Completely off topic, but as a student, working weekends and summer holidays in the gardening department of an old-fashioned department store (yes, very like 'Grace Brother's', for our UK members!), I used to cart around 1 CWT sacks of peat and fertilzers, and literally throw 1/2 CWT (56 lb) sacks to a friend, who'd catch them and stack them.
Later, I'd jump from an Argosy, Hercules or Andover, wirth my personal equipment weighing more than a CWT !
Nowadays, it takes me all my time to lift a pint glass - but I persevere !!
Completely off topic, but as a student, working weekends and summer holidays in the gardening department of an old-fashioned department store (yes, very like 'Grace Brother's', for our UK members!), I used to cart around 1 CWT sacks of peat and fertilzers, and literally throw 1/2 CWT (56 lb) sacks to a friend, who'd catch them and stack them.
Later, I'd jump from an Argosy, Hercules or Andover, wirth my personal equipment weighing more than a CWT !
Nowadays, it takes me all my time to lift a pint glass - but I persevere !!
More bad news for the Halifax!
I was flicking through my copy of 'The Strategic Air War Against Germany 1939-1945' (as you do) looking for information on the real overall cost to the British economy of Bomber Command's effort, which incidentally is usually hugely exaggerated, and came across some more statistics comparing our bombers.
This time it is man power costs which are calculated for every 1,000 lb of bombs dropped. The calculations take into account not just aircraft production, but maintenance and air crew training.
Lancaster: 9.25 man months/1000 lb bombs dropped
Halifax: 27 man months/ 1000 lb bombs dropped
The Mosquito doesn't look so clever on this scale either: 16 man months/1000 lb bombs dropped.
Worse is the venerable Stirling: 38 man months/1000 lb bombs dropped.
Cheers
Steve
I was flicking through my copy of 'The Strategic Air War Against Germany 1939-1945' (as you do) looking for information on the real overall cost to the British economy of Bomber Command's effort, which incidentally is usually hugely exaggerated, and came across some more statistics comparing our bombers.
This time it is man power costs which are calculated for every 1,000 lb of bombs dropped. The calculations take into account not just aircraft production, but maintenance and air crew training.
Lancaster: 9.25 man months/1000 lb bombs dropped
Halifax: 27 man months/ 1000 lb bombs dropped
The Mosquito doesn't look so clever on this scale either: 16 man months/1000 lb bombs dropped.
Worse is the venerable Stirling: 38 man months/1000 lb bombs dropped.
Cheers
Steve
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
Some of that difference could be Lancasters were only built as bombers and towards the end the RAF got very efficient at dropping big loads. Halifax, Stirling and Mossies were used for all sorts of missions. This might skew the figures
A footnote to the table from which I lifted those figures states:
'it should be noted that this method of calculation automatically excludes that part of the effort of Bomber Command expended on sea mining, supply dropping etc but included the contribution to the offensive by all Dominion, Colonial and non-British personnel'.
For the Mosquito:
'A bomb load of 2,000lb is assumed. Some types could carry a 4,000lb bomb'
Cheers
Steve
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