Which aircraft would you cancel?

[Shortround6]

The biggest mistake (in hindsight) was both the army and Navy designing 'specialized" fighters like "interceptors" (the Ki-44 and J2M) while continuing to build general purpose fighters (Ki-43 and A6M) which roughly doubled the design and development work.

Had the Army built a "general purpose fighter" to replace the Ki-43 using the Ki-44 engines they could have wound up with sort of a Ki-84 lite in late 1942 or early 1943 and stopped building Ki-43s all the way through 1945.

Had the Navy built a more general purpose Fighter (even if not carrier capable) using the engine of the J2M and a bigger wing (and getting rid of the extension shaft) they too might have had a much more formidable fighter available sooner. An N1K lite if you will.

 

[GrauGeist]

Valid point GrauGeist but the term too late only applies if the war ends when it actually did. When for example the P 51H was first proposed what was the expected end of the war in the worst case scenario.

The term "too late" is more of a timing reference in relation to their completion and acceptance into service during the span of the war. Some of the U.S. types I mentioned actually had a relatively short gestation period with the exception of the F8F, which was conceived in 1942.

Another example of a late-comer to the war would be the B-36, which has it's roots in 1941 and then after a delay, began development in earnest in 1943. Had the timeline of the war extended past it's historical period (let's say that the atom bombs weren't used and the Pacific war continued conventionally), then we most likely would have seen several types, including the B-36 enter into the conflict. However, with the deteriorating situation in Japan (and German, for that matter) in the later years, how much longer would they (Axis) be able to produce and field their newer types?

 

[SpicyJuan11]

The term "too late" is more of a timing reference in relation to their completion and acceptance into service during the span of the war. Some of the U.S. types I mentioned actually had a relatively short gestation period with the exception of the F8F, which was conceived in 1942.

Another example of a late-comer to the war would be the B-36, which has it's roots in 1941 and then after a delay, began development in earnest in 1943. Had the timeline of the war extended past it's historical period (let's say that the atom bombs weren't used and the Pacific war continued conventionally), then we most likely would have seen several types, including the B-36 enter into the conflict. However, with the deteriorating situation in Japan (and German, for that matter) in the later years, how much longer would they (Axis) be able to produce and field their newer types?

That depends on their strategic situations. If Germany (and Japan) are desperately holding on for an extra few months (for example, due to a much less disastrous Bagration), you may see the Horten 229 V3, Me P.1101, and Ta 183 prototypes all fly, and maybe the HeS 011 of you're lucky. Now give the Axis (namely Germany) some strategical breathing room after say a victory in the east for example, and things would be very interesting indeed, or Göring and the RLM will managed to screw it all up

 

[gjs238]

The planes need pilots and fuel.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

The planes need pilots and fuel.

Are you implying that in 1945 the German's couldn't spare three pilots and enough fuel for three aircraft?

 

[GrauGeist]

That depends on their strategic situations. If Germany (and Japan) are desperately holding on for an extra few months (for example, due to a much less disastrous Bagration), you may see the Horten 229 V3, Me P.1101, and Ta 183 prototypes all fly, and maybe the HeS 011 of you're lucky. Now give the Axis (namely Germany) some strategical breathing room after say a victory in the east for example, and things would be very interesting indeed, or Göring and the RLM will managed to screw it all up

If you read personal accounts by Galland and other 262 pilots in the final months of the war, you'll see that they had a reasonable amount of jets in forward areas, but no fuel to mount any sizable offensive, let alone put up any form of solid resistance. It simply wasn't there.

In late April, unless you were in a Me262, Ar234 or an He162, your life expectancy was almost nil and even then, you had a 50/50 chance of being nailed on take-off/landing.

If the war lasted another 6 months, what little bit of Germany that remained would be ashes. There was simply nothing left the Germans could do to stop the thousands of Allied fighters and bombers that roamed freely across the countryside. The Ho.IX, the P.1101 and the Ta187 were amazing steps in Germany's aircraft design and *if* they had been built and fielded even two years earlier, they would have certainly changed the airwar game to a degree...but they would have simply put off the inevitable.

Germany simply could not match the manufacturing power of the United States and they simply had no sizable army left on the ground to stop the Red Army in the east and the growing Allied army in the west.

By May of 1945, Germany was out of fuel, rubber and sources of raw materials needed for manufacturing munitions, aircraft and armored vericles. They had no more food. They were conscripting children and senior citizens to fill the ranks of their army.

They were done.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

If you read personal accounts by Galland and other 262 pilots in the final months of the war, you'll see that they had a reasonable amount of jets in forward areas, but no fuel to mount any sizable offensive, let alone put up any form of solid resistance. It simply wasn't there.

In late April, unless you were in a Me262, Ar234 or an He162, your life expectancy was almost nil and even then, you had a 50/50 chance of being nailed on take-off/landing.

If the war lasted another 6 months, what little bit of Germany that remained would be ashes. There was simply nothing left the Germans could do to stop the thousands of Allied fighters and bombers that roamed freely across the countryside. The Ho.IX, the P.1101 and the Ta187 were amazing steps in Germany's aircraft design and *if* they had been built and fielded even two years earlier, they would have certainly changed the airwar game to a degree...but they would have simply put off the inevitable.

Germany simply could not match the manufacturing power of the United States and they simply had no sizable army left on the ground to stop the Red Army in the east and the growing Allied army in the west.

By May of 1945, Germany was out of fuel, rubber and sources of raw materials needed for manufacturing munitions, aircraft and armored vericles. They had no more food. They were conscripting children and senior citizens to fill the ranks of their army.

They were done.

Yes GrauGeist, but what I said was that you'll see the Ho 229 V3, Me P.1101, and Ta 183 prototypes would fly. Perhaps you and gjs238 mistaked this with mass production?

 

[GrauGeist]

The Ho.IX did fly...

V1 flew several times as a glider. V2 flew under jet power for the first time in early February, 1945. Unfortunately, it was wrecked in a crash a few weeks later. V3 was very close to completion when the war ended, this is the Ho.IX that the Smithsonian has.

At least the Bell X-5 proved the P.1101 was a sound design.

Anyway, the point here, is that even if the war lasted a few months more and these prototypes took to the air, what good would it have done?

 

[kool kitty89]

The navy could cansel the J2M, considering that it was build in few numbers and encountered many troubles. But the IJN couldn't even know that the N1K1-J would emerge as a decent alternative. It's perfect hindsight, but Kawanishi obviously had the ability and design capacity to design an outstanding fighter. By canselling the N1K1 they could consentrate on a land fighter, redesigns as moving the wing to the bottom of the fuselage wouldn't be nessessary.

The N1K was never a carrier capable fighter, so either that would need to be added to the requirement, or an additional aircraft would need to be developed. (and either way an earlier engine would need to be used initially, namely the Kasei -as the N1K already used in floatplane form)

The BMW 802 was a very impressive engine with numerous advanced features such as two stage supercharging with an intercooler and, according to the BMW site, the first use of variable valve timing. However, the design was only started after the 801 entered production, so it was not likely to be ready for operational use from 1/1/1944. At least the fuel injectors for BMW engines were not made by Bosch, so there is some chance that anyone taking a licence to produce a BMW engine would not be sabotaged as Japan was over the DB 601.

Indeed, developing native engines would be much more effective in that context, but prior to the Homare becoming available, the 14 cylinder Kasei would be the best high-powered engine to consider.

Nobody seems to have suggested cancelling any Japanese aircraft but there does seem to be some slight scope for rationalizing their production priorities. Should they have produced the A5M and the Ki-27, the A6M and the Ki-43, the D3A and the Ki-51 or the J1N and Ki-45? OK, I know that the IJA and the IJN were not very good at cooperation. However, should the IJA have produced the Ki-43, Ki-44 and Ki-61? Could any of those have replaced the J2M? Should the IJN have produced the N1K or could the A6M2-N have sufficed if even that was necessary?

Other comments and suggestions?

The A5M doesn't seem like it has an obvious alternative for the time, but the A6M itself might have avoided some of its failings had the Japanese begun applying armor and self-sealing fuel systems around the same time the Americans did (based on reports returning from combat over Europe).

Putting emphasis on a successor to the A6M using a more powerful engine (probably the Kasei) would also make sense.

The IJN on the other hand, missed an opportunity with the V-12 powered Ki-28 with its significant performance lead over the Ki 27 and further potential to develop Kawasaki's high speed, liquid cooled monoplane designs. Had that design been favored, perhaps Kawasaki would have continued or accelerated their inline engine development well before any potential DB-601 license. Copying or improving on the likes of the Hispano 12Y (like the Russians did) would make a good deal of sense, though so might developing a larger, heavier, large displacement design following their older BMW VI derived Ha-9. (similar to what Mikulin did in Russia, moving on with an engine of similar cylinder dimensions but using a cast block and eventually developing much more power -from the AM34 to AM35 to AM37 and AM38, etc)

Admittedly, a fighter of the Ki-28 or Ki-61's size would much better match a smaller, lighter V12 more akin to the Hispano 12Y. Plus, the 12Y had already been designed for a hub mounted cannon and did so with greater design flexibility than the German engines. (Possibly making the Army's Ho-3 20 mm cannon useful on single engine fighters before the Ho-5 even enters production, while also being very interesting for later 30 and 37 mm developments)

 

[GrauGeist]

The N1K was never a carrier capable fighter, so either that would need to be added to the requirement, or an additional aircraft would need to be developed. (and either way an earlier engine would need to be used initially, namely the Kasei -as the N1K already used in floatplane form)

The N1K was intended to be a land-based fighter for the IJN and by that point in the war, at least the IJN was being realistic, because their carrier force was nearly all submerged...

 

[Just Schmidt]

The N1K was never a carrier capable fighter, so either that would need to be added to the requirement, or an additional aircraft would need to be developed. (and either way an earlier engine would need to be used initially, namely the Kasei -as the N1K already used in floatplane form)

Neither was the J2M I suggest canselling. And the engine was ready for the N1K1-J which was build in some numbers before the redesign into N1K2-J

 

[Just Schmidt]

That depends on their strategic situations. If Germany (and Japan) are desperately holding on for an extra few months (for example, due to a much less disastrous Bagration), you may see the Horten 229 V3, Me P.1101, and Ta 183 prototypes all fly, and maybe the HeS 011 of you're lucky. Now give the Axis (namely Germany) some strategical breathing room after say a victory in the east for example, and things would be very interesting indeed, or Göring and the RLM will managed to screw it all up

As covered by others, what Strategic assets the germans had left in late 44 was insufficient in any case. Personally I prefer the stalling in front of Moscow as the turning point.

For the Pacific war i honestly believe Pearl Harbour to be the decisive Battle.

Anyway, in 45 Japanese Production was coming to a halt. Many factories were bombed out, some even disabled by earthquakes, and what rmained were at their end run as raw materials were running out. Japan was very much dependent on overseas supplies of a wide range of goods, not only oil. And while its Merchant fleet was racing the carrier fleet to the bottom of the sea, was even on the verge of starvation. Think Great Britain after loosing the Battle of the Atlantic.

To give the Japanese even a slight chance to alter the outcome (while never actually winning the war), they need to have vastly improved over the historical situation aircraftvise at the latest in the beginning of 44.

 

[parsifal]

The J2M raiden was intended to be the defensive fighter once the IJN was to fall back on after the completion of the offensive elements of the IJN plan. It was never intended for the Zeke to remain in production for as long as it did. Its greatest asset was it range and its shock value. It created an aura of invincibility because no one could believe the Japanese could design and build an aircraft comparable or superior in performance to western types, with the range capable of taking the fight right up to to the allies. The Zeke did this on an engine of fairly small capacity, so trade offs were needed, mostly in firepower and protection. These were critical in a defensive fighter, with range playing a less significant role.

The idea the Japanese had was, firstly that after the initial victories, the allies would be forced to negotiate a peace deal with Japan, given the impending victory in Europe. If that didnt eventuate, the contingency plan was to fall back to their older pacific defence strategy. They would swing over to the defensive, fortifying the outer islands and use their subs light forces, mines and frontier air defences to attrition the opposing forces to a point that their own fleet could fight the decisive battle somewhere in the central pacific. If they could win that second round, they could undertake a round of further reinforcement at the frontiers, until the enemy tired, or bled himself white on their defences.

In the context of that thinking, wrong and misplaced as it was, the J2M made perfect sense. It was everything the Zeke was not......powerful, well armed, protected, fast, big engine. That it suffered massive delays and technical glitches was not really the fault of the aircraft, more a function of Japanese over confidence as to their capabilities.

The George was really just cashing in on the massive investment the japanese had made in their floatplane fighter program. The japanese had unique ideas of deploying floatplanes whilst on the attack, to provide immediate cover for landings mostly. It was inherently offensive in thinking, linked to the initial stages of their decisive battle described above. By 1942 it was clear, that for a while (they clung to the notion of winning back the initiative until late 1944) offensive of that ty[e were off the table. Moreover, they had several promising designs like the REX and urgently needed to improve the quality of their air defence fighters. Hence the transformation of the REX to the GEORGE.

 

[Shortround6]

Indeed, developing native engines would be much more effective in that context, but prior to the Homare becoming available, the 14 cylinder Kasei would be the best high-powered engine to consider.

The A5M doesn't seem like it has an obvious alternative for the time, but the A6M itself might have avoided some of its failings had the Japanese begun applying armor and self-sealing fuel systems around the same time the Americans did (based on reports returning from combat over Europe).

Putting emphasis on a successor to the A6M using a more powerful engine (probably the Kasei) would also make sense.

The Japanese had a partial solution to the A6M problem staring them in the face. Stick the Kinsei engine in the Zero airframe in 1942. It had about 15-16% greater displacement ans should offer a similar or slightly less increase in power for only a slight increase in diameter and weight. It was done at the end of the war with the A6M8.

The IJN on the other hand, missed an opportunity with the V-12 powered Ki-28 with its significant performance lead over the Ki 27 and further potential to develop Kawasaki's high speed, liquid cooled monoplane designs. Had that design been favored, perhaps Kawasaki would have continued or accelerated their inline engine development well before any potential DB-601 license. Copying or improving on the likes of the Hispano 12Y (like the Russians did) would make a good deal of sense, though so might developing a larger, heavier, large displacement design following their older BMW VI derived Ha-9. (similar to what Mikulin did in Russia, moving on with an engine of similar cylinder dimensions but using a cast block and eventually developing much more power -from the AM34 to AM35 to AM37 and AM38, etc)

Admittedly, a fighter of the Ki-28 or Ki-61's size would much better match a smaller, lighter V12 more akin to the Hispano 12Y. Plus, the 12Y had already been designed for a hub mounted cannon and did so with greater design flexibility than the German engines. (Possibly making the Army's Ho-3 20 mm cannon useful on single engine fighters before the Ho-5 even enters production, while also being very interesting for later 30 and 37 mm developments)

The Japanese had enough trouble developing the engines they had without trying to fool around with total redesigns of antiques like the Ha-9. The Russians didn't just tweak the Hispano to get the M-105, it took them years and several intermediate steps (engine models) just to get to the 1100hp M-105P version, they also added almost 200lbs of "improvements". Having the Japanese devote 10s of thousands of man hours to developing these engines could only be a benefit to the Allies.

as far as the Army's Ho-3 20mm cannon goes.

You are stuck with a Hispano type engine as this thing will NOT fit in a DB style engine tube.

It had a rate of fire 1/2 to 2/3 that of a Hispano gun.

 

[tomo pauk]

The comparison is size of wing between the Ki 44 and the Oscar&Zeke is interesting - that of the Ki 44 was some 3/4s in the area vs. the early war dynamic duo. Granted, the aircraft were not designed to the same or similar requirements, but we can also consider that Ki 44 was also powered by more powerful engines - either 1-speed Ha-41 (1260 CV at 3700 m) or two speed Ha-109 (most of the Ki 44 produced; 1440 CV at 2700m, 1220 CV at 5200 m). Internal fuel - 128 US gals, per TAIC manual.
So a 'big wing' Ki 44 (~200 sq ft instead of 169), with 150 US gals, same engines, 4 HMGs initially (later 2 cannons + 2 HMGs) should've make plenty of sense?
The Ki 61 was bigger, with huge internal fuel load (199 US gals), and, as war progressed, improving armament. The 'Ki 61 lite' should be interesting - swap the wing between historical Ki 44 and Ki 61? Or, install the Ha-109 on the Ki 61 to produce the 'Ki 100', the Zero needs the Kasei dearly.
The Raiden with 'plain vanilla' Kinsei (= no ext. shaft) should also be KISS business. The wing is already tad bigger than of Fw 190.

 

[Shortround6]

The Ki-84 used a wing 4 sq ft smaller than the Ki-43. Keep the 220-230sq ft wing size, just build a plane in between the Ki-43 and Ki-84. Engine in the Ki-43 weighed around 530-590kg depending on version. The engines in the KI-44 went around 630kg for the Ha-41 and around 720KG for the Ha-109. The Homare went around 835kg. Trade a little speed for the Japanese traditional maneuverability and double the guns, it won't maneuver like a Ki-43 but it shouldn't be more than 10-12mph slower than the real Ki-44.

Of the 5919 Ki-43 built something over 5000 of them were built from Nov of 1942 on. One factory that built over 2600 didn't start delivering until May of 1943. 10 months after LA-5s start to show up and after F4Us are in action for several months.

 

[tomo pauk]

...
One factory that built over 2600 didn't start delivering until May of 1943.
...

 

[Shortround6]

Makes keeping the Battle in production until late 1940 look good.

 

[kool kitty89]

That depends on their strategic situations. If Germany (and Japan) are desperately holding on for an extra few months (for example, due to a much less disastrous Bagration), you may see the Horten 229 V3, Me P.1101, and Ta 183 prototypes all fly, and maybe the HeS 011 of you're lucky.

The HeS 011 was probably a dead end (it might have worked, but not at the power/efficiency targeted and would be very costly/work intensive tomanufacture due to the precision machined mixed-flow compressor stage). The Jumo 004D and E (including afterburning variants) and BMW 003D (using reaction rather than impulse compressor blading) would be the more realistic engines approaching the 'class II' thrust range.

That and further Me 262 derivatives would also probably be the best bet, had the Germans been in any position to continue production. (engine upgrades would be most likely, be it 004 or 003 derivatives, and possibly adopting the leading edge wing root extension tested on the HG-I)

The 003s going to the He 162 probably would have been more worthwhile mated to Me 262 airframes as well.

The N1K was intended to be a land-based fighter for the IJN and by that point in the war, at least the IJN was being realistic, because their carrier force was nearly all submerged...

Neither was the J2M I suggest canselling. And the engine was ready for the N1K1-J which was build in some numbers before the redesign into N1K2-J

I suppose the better question would be: would an alternate N1K-2 like design (but with the earlier Kasei engine) also be adaptable as a carrier based fighter? (wing loading/stall speed, wheel pressure, and performance with tail-hook equipped and CoG shifts addressed would all come into play)

In the context of that thinking, wrong and misplaced as it was, the J2M made perfect sense. It was everything the Zeke was not......powerful, well armed, protected, fast, big engine. That it suffered massive delays and technical glitches was not really the fault of the aircraft, more a function of Japanese over confidence as to their capabilities.

Abandoning the extension shaft arrangement and going for a more conventional short cowling (possibly still using a cooling fan or perhaps resorting to a cuffed propeller to help facilitate a tighter cowling and larger/streamlined spinner) should have saved a great deal of time and difficulty in production and service regardless of sticking with the interceptor requirement. (Curtis and Focke Wulf both attempted extension shaft and odd cooling arrangements for radial engines and abandoned those in favor of more conventional arrangements, with or without fans)

The Japanese had a partial solution to the A6M problem staring them in the face. Stick the Kinsei engine in the Zero airframe in 1942. It had about 15-16% greater displacement ans should offer a similar or slightly less increase in power for only a slight increase in diameter and weight. It was done at the end of the war with the A6M8.

The Kinsei combined with structural reinforcement (including thicker skin) would be a significant adaptation. (along with armor and self-sealing tanks) You'd lose some range, of course, and CoG shift might be an issue, but it's not all that different an engine change than the F2A saw going from the F2A-1/B.239 to the F2A-2 or Buffalo Mk.I, or what the A6M already dealt with switching to the heavier Sakae models. (making engine and armor changes at the same time would also allow some degree of controlling CoG by using armor plate weight and location as ballast)

There's also the Ha41, but that's a bit larger and heavier still.

The Japanese had enough trouble developing the engines they had without trying to fool around with total redesigns of antiques like the Ha-9. The Russians didn't just tweak the Hispano to get the M-105, it took them years and several intermediate steps (engine models) just to get to the 1100hp M-105P version, they also added almost 200lbs of "improvements". Having the Japanese devote 10s of thousands of man hours to developing these engines could only be a benefit to the Allies.

But would it be more troublesome than getting the licensed DB-601 into production? This could include avoiding the more extensive changes the Soviets made and remaining closer to the performance range the French managed with development of the 12Y (not 12Z) but possibly making further supercharger improvements or at least implementing 2-speed drive.

Other than that, the Jumo 211 might have been easier to mass produce than the 601 (and the 211F would seem to line up with Ha-40/Ki-61 production) of course they wouldn't have been able to accommodate the Ho-3 in that case, but the Ho-5 would be more attractive once it arrived anyway. (aside from any imported MG 151s ... and precluding any sort of unlikely cooperation between Army and Navy weapons production to allow the Oerlikon based guns to be used)

The Hispano engines seem better for a potential early/pre-war development as a direct follow-on for the earlier Ki-28 fighter design.

Aside, of course, from just shifting to radial engines entirely and focusing more on something closer to the Ki-100 from the start. (or prior to that, an earlier development around the Sakae stemming from the Ki-28 might make for something significantly better than the Ki 43) No possibility of unsynchronized centerline cannons in that case, though.

The Ki 61 was bigger, with huge internal fuel load (199 US gals), and, as war progressed, improving armament. The 'Ki 61 lite' should be interesting - swap the wing between historical Ki 44 and Ki 61? Or, install the Ha-109 on the Ki 61 to produce the 'Ki 100'

The Ha41 followed by Ha109 seems reasonable for an aircraft of that class, assuming they didn't go for the Jumo engines. (or in addition to those in either case -any 12Y derivatives would probably top out too low to work well on something of the Ki-61's size, but again better for something closer to the earlier Ki 28 )

the Zero needs the Kasei dearly.

The Raiden with 'plain vanilla' Kinsei (= no ext. shaft) should also be KISS business. The wing is already tad bigger than of Fw 190.

I think you've got Kasei and Kinsei switched there. (Kasei would be a slightly larger/more powerful engine than the Sakae, the Kasai is in another class entirely and more akin to the BMW 801 or R-2600)

 

[tomo pauk]

...
I think you've got Kasei and Kinsei switched there. (Kasei would be a slightly larger/more powerful engine than the Sakae, the Kasai is in another class entirely and more akin to the BMW 801 or R-2600)

Couldn't they named them a bit more differently, those funky people at Mitsubishi Yep, mixed them up.