Which countries would you like to see...

[GermansRGeniuses]

in a best fighter pilot thread?



Feel free to leave suggestions, but only stating which countries is fine...


(We'll see which country has the most votes and thus the most choices...)

 

[Medvedya]

Urmm, you would have to have German and Russian aces in there wouldn't you?

It would be a bit like leaving Brazil out of a 'Greatest Footballing Nations' poll.

 

[GermansRGeniuses]

Like I said, the country that gets the most votes gets the most choices, thus the reason for the obvious being up...

 

[Darkstalker]

I think Germany will be on the lead

 

[kiwimac]

What! No Albanian option??????

Kiwimac

 

[GermansRGeniuses]

That's why Others is there...


Vote for it, leave a suggestion for country and pilot, and we'll see what we can do!

 

[Nonskimmer]

I'm assuming Gross Britanien includes the Commonwealth countries (Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc, etc...) ?

 

[GermansRGeniuses]

Hmm...



Seeing as how they WERE part of the U.K. at some time, I'd have to say yes...


Make sure you leave a suggestion, or else it will be assumed you mean England...

 

[evangilder]

I would say US, UK, Japan and Germany. Those are the main ones I think of. I know there were probably aces from other places like Russia and Italy, I just don't know much about them.

 

[lesofprimus]

While this is great, it really doesnt affect the greatest ace poll... People who deserve to be on this list are..... The most eligible....

There are not alot of people that know alot about aces... I consider myself one who knows a good deal.... There are a few others that may know more, but the majority know alot about planes and little on pilots....

I can only list 15 pilots... It makes it very difficult.... Just because a certain pilot is ur favorite, doesnt make him the Greatest..... REMEMBER THIS.....

Educate yourselves with the names on the poll.... Do a search on the name... Everyone of them will have 25 links for them.... Read alittle if ur unsure..... Then make ur vote.....

Its interesting to see that Hans-Joachim was almost tied with Herr Hartmann..... I think if more people knew about certain people on this poll, the tallies would vary more....

Im going to make the new poll with the listed pilots in the other thread... I think I have everyone covered one way or another.....

 

[Nonskimmer]

Seeing as how they WERE part of the U.K. at some time, I'd have to say yes...

Never part of the UK, part of the Commonwealth.

That is, countries that were dominions of the British Empire but were self-governing. The United Kingdom refers to Great Britain (England, Scotland, and Wales) plus Northern Ireland.



And that's my sticky point for the evening!

 

[Nonskimmer]

Les, if you want to take George Beurling off the list, go ahead. Most people here probably don't have a clue who he was anyway, and if it's just going to make it that much more confusing then it's probably not worth it.

I only suggested the name because he was Canada's leading ace, but how many Canadians generally post here anyway? A few. Like you say, there were many more deserving pilots who should probably be listed, and just because someone is your favorite it doesn't necessarily make him the best.

 

[lesofprimus]

OK...... Thats cool, glad u see it my kinda way....

 

[GermansRGeniuses]

How about this?

Jochen
Bader
Galland
Bong
Kozhedub
Hartmann
McGuire
Gabby
Notwony
Sakai
Eino Juutilainen (94.5 kills, 34 in Buffalos)
Beurling
Pips
Molders
Wolfgang Falck (Or some other NF pilot, I don't know many...)



How about that?

 

[evangilder]

You make a good point, Les. I know alot about airplanes, but my knowledge of aces is pretty weak. Sure, I know names like Dick Bong, mcGuire, McCampbell and a few others. I had heard of guys like Molders ,sp?. and Galland. It was only since I have been here that I have heard more of the other aces. I think having the names in the polls gives us all an opportunity to learn more.

Funny how alot of emphasis goes into fighter pilots, which is deserved, don;t get me wrong. But rarely do people hear names of bomber crews, outside of the pilots. Everyone knows names like Paul Tibbetts and Jimmy Doolittle. Sorry, just an observation.

I would be curious if there are known German bomber crews that survived a ton of missions. Did they stay together as a cohesive crew like the Americans mostly did? Sorry I am off topic.

 

[kiwimac]

There was the Japanese ace with 100 kills whose name I have forgotten.

Kiwimac

 

[lesofprimus]

Actually the highest scoring Japanese ace is Hiroyoshi Nishizawa, credited with 87 official confirmed victories.....

Here is my file on japanese aces.... Most reference the 87 as the correct score... There was no such thing as record keeping for the latter years of the war....

Imperial Japanese Army Air Force
1/ Hiromichi Shinohara / 58 / All in Manchuria
2 / Satoshi Anabuki / 51
3 / Sumi Kamito / 40
4 / Isamu Sasaki / 38
5 / Mitsuyoshi Tarui / 38, (incl. 28 in Manchuria)
6 / Isame Kashide / 32
7 / Sada Koga / 31
8 / Yasuhiko Kuroe / 30
9 / Shogo Takeuchi / 30
note that most JAAF high scorers fought in the Nomonhan border war with Russia in 1939, which compares interestingly with the huge scores attributed to Finnish Brewsters in their 1941-44 border war on the Russian's western front.


Imperial Japanese Navy Air Force
1 / Hiroyoshi Nishizawa / 87
2 / Tetsuzo Iwamoto / 80
3 / Shigeo Fukumoto 72
4 / Shoichi Sugita / 70
5 / Saburo Sakai / 64
6 / Takeo Okumura / 50
7 / Toshio Ota / 34
8 / Kazuo Sugino / 32


Japanese Aces AllTime

Nishizawa 87 (87 of 184 claimed confirmed)
Iwamoto 80 (64 of 202 claimed confirmed)
Sugita 70 (70 of 120 claimed confirmed)
Sakai 64
Shinohara 58
Anabuki 51 (39 of 96 claimed confirmed)
Okumura 50 (50 of 84 claimed confirmed)
Sasaki 38
Tarui 38
Ota 34
Sugino 32
Kashide 32
Kuroe 30
Takeuchi 30

Japanese Aces
Hiroyoshi Nishizawa 87
Tetsuzo Iwamoto 80
Shoychi Sugita 70
Saburo Sakai 64
Hiromishi Shinohara 58
Satoshi Anabuki 51
Takeo Okumura 50
Isamu Sasaki 38
Micuyoshi Tarui+ 38
Toshiyo Ota 34
Kazuo Sugino 32
Yashiki Kuroe 30
Shizuko Ishi 29
Kaneyoshi Muto 28
Chiyoshi Saito 28
Kenji Shimada 28
Sadaaki Akamatsu 27
Isamu Hosono 27
Yunishi Sasai 27
Rikia Shibata 27
Goychi Sumino 27
Moricugu Kanai 26
Hidenori Macunaga 26
Shogo Saito 26
Goro Furugori 25


Claimed Kills vs Verified

Tetsuzo Iwamoto 202 - 64
Hiroyoshi Nishizawa 174 - 187 (104 confirmed?)
Shoichi Sugita 120 -70
Takeo Okumura 98 -50
Satoshi Anabuki 96-39
Mitsuyoshi Tarui 76-10
Tadashi Nakajima 75
Isamu Sasaki 75-32
Shigeo Fukumoto 72
Toshio Ota (Devil of Rabaul) 68-34
Saburo Sakai 64
Kazuo Sugino 64-32
Yasuhiko Kuroe 60-28
Junichi Sasai 60-27
Hiromishi Shinohara 58
Sadaaki Akamatsu 54-16
Naoishi Kanno 53-25
Goro Furugori 50-25
Kenji Okabe 50-15


Lt(jg) Tetsuzo Iwamoto 202
CPO Shoichi Sugita 120+
WO Hiroyoshi Nishizawa 87
WO Shigeo Fukumoto 72
Ens Saburo Sakai 60+
Lt(jg) Junichi Sasai 54
CPO Takeo Okumura 50
Ens Kenji Okabe 50
Lt Naoshi Kanno 48
WO Ryoji Ohara 48
Lt Cdr Iyozoh Fujita 42
WO Sadamu Komachi 40
Ens Kaneyoshi Muto 35
PO1/c Toshio Ota 34
WO Kazuo Sugino 32
WO Takeo Tanimizu 32
Ens Susumu Ishihara 30+
CPO Shizuo Ishii 28
Lt(jg) Sadaaki Akamatsu 27
WO Nobuo Ogiya 24
CPO Yoshimi Hidaka 20
Lt(jg) Shigeo Sugio 20

Officially Recognized:
Nishizawa = 87
Iwamoto = 80+
Sakai = 64
Sugita = 30+
Source: Japanese Fighter Aces and Fightere Units - Pages 239 thru 243




nishizawa 87
shigeo fukumoto 72
sho-ichi sugita 70
iwamoto 66
sakai 62
takeo okumura 50
yoshihiko nakada 45
sumi kamito 40 +
anabuki 39
toshio ota 34
morichiki kamae 32 (moritsugo kanai???)
isamu sasaki 32
kazuo sugino 32
goro Furogori 30 (+20 in china???)

Tetsuzo Iwamoto 202 Mitsubishi Zero
Hiroyoshi Nishizawa 174 Mitsubishi Zero (carrier)
Shoichi Sugita 120 Mitsubishi Zero
Takeo Okumura 98 Mitsubishi Zero
Satoshi Anabuki 96 Mitsubishi Zero (carrier)
Mitsuyoshi Tarui 76 Mitsubishi Zero
Isamu Sasaki 75 Mitsubishi A6M2
Shigeo Fukumoto 72 Mitsubishi Zero
Inyo Endo 69 Mitsubishi A6M2
Toshio Ota 68 Mitsubishi Zero
Saburo Sakai 64 Mitsubishi Zero
Kazuo Sugino 64 Mitsubishi A6M2
Yasuhiko Kuroe 60 Mitsubishi Zero
Junichi Sasai 60 Mitsubishi A6M2
Hiromishi Shinohara 58 Mitsubishi Zero (carrier)
Sadaaki Akamatsu 54 Mitsubishi Zero (carrier)
Goro Furugori 50 Mitsubishi A6M2
Kenji Okabe 50 Mitsubishi Zero
Naoshi Kanno 48 "Tony"
Ryoji Ohara 48 Mitsubishi Zero
Yoshihiko Nakada 45Mitsubishi Zero
Yohei (johei) Hinoki 45 Mitsubishi Zero (carrier)
Iyozo Fujita 42 "Tony"
Sumi Kamito 40 Mitsubishi Zero
Sadamu Komachi 40 Mitsubishi Zero (carrier)

Japanese Fighter Aces

Name Kills
Hirojoshi Nishizawa 87
Shigeo Fukumoto 72
Sho-ichi Sugita 70
Tecuzo Iwamoto 66
Saburo Sakai 64
Horimichi Shinohara 58
Takeo Okumura 54
Satoshi Anabuki 51
Johei Hinoki 45
Yoshihiko Nakada 45
Sumi Kamito 40
Micuyoshi Tarui 38
Isamu Sasaki 37
Toshio Ota 34
Kazuo Sugino 32
Sada Koga 31
Yasuhiro Kuroe 30
Shizuo Ishii 29
Takeyoshi Muto 28
Chiyoshi Saito 28
Sada-aki Akamacu 27
Isamu Hosono 27
Jun-ichi Sasai 27
Rikio Shibata 27
Kenji Shimada 27
Goychi Sumino 27
Moritsugu Kanai 26
Isamu Kashiide 26
Takaji Kimura 26
Hidenori Matsunaga 26
Goro Miyamoto 26
Shogo Saito 26
Goro Furugori 25
Tomio Hanada 25
Tokuyasu Ishizuka 25
Naoshi Kanno 25

 

[evangilder]

Getting solid numbers on Japanese aces is difficult as there is a reliance on logs and memories of the pilots. Keeping a score was against Japanese military policy as they felt that it took away from unit cohesion and favored pilots with more kills. But I think that 87 for Nishizawa is generally accepted by historians. The numbers will vary depending on the source you look at. Nishizawa is also generally accepted as the highest scoring ace of Japan.

 

[Lightning Guy]

The class system in place in Japan also hurt the record keeping. Lower-class pilots generally were not recognized.

 

[evangilder]

That is also true, LG.