Which fighter brought the biggest new advantage when introduced?

[Glider]

The actual advantage(s) gained were amongst other things a huge advantage in performance. Once airborne nothing the Allies had could touch the Me262 if it was well flown. Problem was however that the lack of fuel trained pilots, as-well as the huge numerical disadvantage the German suffered from, kept them from ever being capable of capitalizing on the actual advantages the Me262 introduced.

As for its performance against fighters, it far from lost out, instead it outshined everything else out there. Several pilots scoring over 5 fighters in the Me262 without being shot down once. Also remember that the far majority of Me262's lost in combat were so by being bounced whilst trying to land or return to base. The escorts ganged up on the Me262's everytime one was spotted, never allowing a fair fight.

I think the difference lies between having a potential advantage and an actual one. On this we are going to have to differ. No one will disagree that the 262 had a huge performance advantage but the circumstances meant that it didn't deliver any strategic advantage.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I think the difference lies between having a potential advantage and an actual one. On this we are going to have to differ. No one will disagree that the 262 had a huge performance advantage but the circumstances meant that it didn't deliver any strategic advantage.

BINGO!

 

[Soren]

Judging from the last few responses it doesn't seem like we were in disagreement at all then, FLYBOYJ, Bill Glider. Like I said in post #129:

The Me262 brought with it the biggest advantage any airplane had ever had above the rest at any time during the war, unfortunately for the Germans however the means to capitalize on such an advantage had passed by the time the Me262 was finally let into service.

 

[Glider]

Blimey, you, me, Bill and FJ all in agreement a first

Just to throw a thought into this. The often overlooked Arado 234 did give the germans something that hadn't had since around 1942. Not only did it have the performance to excell it did give the Luftwaffe a reliable PR capability.

 

[Clay_Allison]

I don't see how being too expensive and short legged to be effective under late war conditions don't count as flaws. It was a fighter that didn't fit the situation and didn't deliver a SIGNIFICANT advantage to the LW, even if it did deliver an advantage to a given pilot.

 

[buffnut453]

Clay, I don't think ANY fighter could have fitted the conditions faced by the Luftwaffe in late-44 and early-45. It was clear by then that the Nazi party's aspirations were in tatters and it was a question of when rather than if the Allies would triumph. Even if resources were diverted from Me262 to piston types, problems remained in terms of pilot availability and quality, fuel, spares, not to mention an ever-shrinking defensive boundary (which always disrupts defence as units redeploy from airfields that are about to be overrun, hence reducing warning and ability to intercept incoming raids at distance).

 

[buffnut453]

Judging from the last few responses it doesn't seem like we were in disagreement at all then, FLYBOYJ, Bill Glider. Like I said in post #129:

The Me262 brought with it the biggest advantage any airplane had ever had above the rest at any time during the war, unfortunately for the Germans however the means to capitalize on such an advantage had passed by the time the Me262 was finally let into service.

Which is precisely the point I made at Post #121 (sigh...would you like the 15-minute argument or the full half hour (or in this case month!)) - "biggest advantage" can be operational or it can be in outright performance, the former being the effect of the fighter force on the operational landscape, the latter being the comparison of the individual aircraft type's performance with that of its opponents'.

Glad we all agree (or at least most of us)....at last!

 

[drgondog]

Judging from the last few responses it doesn't seem like we were in disagreement at all then, FLYBOYJ, Bill Glider. Like I said in post #129:

The Me262 brought with it the biggest advantage any airplane had ever had above the rest at any time during the war, unfortunately for the Germans however the means to capitalize on such an advantage had passed by the time the Me262 was finally let into service.

I am in total agreement with this statement - zero equivocation or nitpicking - lol!

 

[drgondog]

Blimey, you, me, Bill and FJ all in agreement a first

absolutely NOT the first time - by far

Just to throw a thought into this. The often overlooked Arado 234 did give the germans something that hadn't had since around 1942. Not only did it have the performance to excell it did give the Luftwaffe a reliable PR capability.

But not potentially the game changer that the 262 was - although the last model and the 4 engine version would have been devastaing to Allied bases in UK at the BEGINNING of 1944.

 

[parsifal]

Parsifal lets please refrain from misinterpreting what I wrote on purpose. If a lone Fw-190D-9 attacked a US bomber stream in late 1944 or 1945 with a swarm of escorts keeping a close eye, then sorry but the Fw-190D-9 is deadmeat in that case. It would be unable to escape the escorts, the P-51 being just as fast in level flight and on top of that featuring generally better performance at high alts whilst on top of that always flying above the bombers to come zooming down. Only the Me262 had a good chance of getting away with such an attack. It was nearly 200 km/h faster than its' closest opposition. Like many of the pilots who faced the Me262 in combat have put it: "It went by at a speed which made it look like we were standing still"

And directly from the gospel of fighter pilots: Speed is life!

I agree that the 262 had a tremendous advantage in survivability due to its speed, but I stick to my point. Its not absolutely essential for survivability to have a jet powered aircraft in heavily outnumbered situations....ther are many ways to gain speed advantages, and there are many examples of small numbers of fighters against large formations attacking and getting away with it.

During the Battle Of Britain it was Dowdings chief strategy to attack in small groups, using boom and zoom tactics. The average size of an incoming strike was usually in the order of 100+ bandits, versus just 3-12 Angels. Dowding believed that not engaging the Germans using big wing tactics....a full on meeting of the attack with an equally big formation of defenders was actually less costly to the RAF. It also meant less loss to the LW, but the relationship was not linear. Smaller sized attack formations meant smaller, but more attacks, that overall would cause more losses to the Luftwaffe, whilst overall meant less losses to the RAF. It was the chief reason why the RAF survived the battle, and thereby could claim victory.

Perhaps the situation over germany was different than in 1940, I suspect the long legs of the Mustang had a lot to do with it. Whereas an Me 109e might have the fuel to react to say one attack by RAF fighters, the mustang might have the ability to react to any number. Perhaps therein lies the diference as to why you say individual attacks were not successful over Germany

 

[Soren]

Parsifal you can't compare BoB to the situation facing the LW from 1944 to 1945. In 1944 to 45 the Allied bomber streams had escorts with enough fuel to not only stay and fight the interceptors, but also chase them all the way back to their home bases and back if need be. During the BoB escorting LW fighters hardly had enough fuel to stay and fight off any attackers in the first place.

Sorry Parsifal, but there just is no comparison to be made here and I am sticking with my point as-well. A lone 190 attacking a heavily guarded Allied bomber stream in late 1944 to 45 was as good as dead.

 

[drgondog]

I agree that the 262 had a tremendous advantage in survivability due to its speed, but I stick to my point. Its not absolutely essential for survivability to have a jet powered aircraft in heavily outnumbered situations....ther are many ways to gain speed advantages, and there are many examples of small numbers of fighters against large formations attacking and getting away with it.

During the Battle Of Britain it was Dowdings chief strategy to attack in small groups, using boom and zoom tactics. The average size of an incoming strike was usually in the order of 100+ bandits, versus just 3-12 Angels. Dowding believed that not engaging the Germans using big wing tactics....a full on meeting of the attack with an equally big formation of defenders was actually less costly to the RAF. It also meant less loss to the LW, but the relationship was not linear. Smaller sized attack formations meant smaller, but more attacks, that overall would cause more losses to the Luftwaffe, whilst overall meant less losses to the RAF. It was the chief reason why the RAF survived the battle, and thereby could claim victory.

Perhaps the situation over germany was different than in 1940, I suspect the long legs of the Mustang had a lot to do with it. Whereas an Me 109e might have the fuel to react to say one attack by RAF fighters, the mustang might have the ability to react to any number. Perhaps therein lies the diference as to why you say individual attacks were not successful over Germany

Parsifal _ you and I normally see eye to eye but I have to agree with Soren that there is not only not a good anology between the tactics of LW over Germany vs BoB - but the tactical doctrines and the fact that a.) LW fighters were strictly tethered to their bombers and b.) engagements were at the limit of 109E range were diametrically opposite 8th AF FC capabilities.

I don't believe any other battlefield environment existed in WWII where an attacking force was at a consistent disadvantage as the LW during the Battle of Germany from March 1944 forward and certainly by October when the 262 first showed up.

The LW made some great hits in that timeframe but due solely to skilled LW controllers, good LW fighter leadership and usually a bomber navigation or fighter escort R/V screw up.

Bombers were the bait, LW were the fish and the USAAF escort fighters were the fishermen - using gil nets and boat hooks in the chum. The Mustangs had the performance and range to track the lone boom and zoom foray and make him pay.

one or two fighters getting through to whack a stray bomber only meant something to the guys affected and their friends and families.

 

[parsifal]

I agree with everything you are saying DG, but that was not the claim made by Soren. Check back on his posts and you will see that he did not qualify his statements about lone interceptors against large formations at any point. What I am saying is that the Sorens statement might apply to one moment in time, one particular campaign, but not as a general rule applicable to every or most situations. Mostly lone fighters had a good chance to make and intercption and get away with it. this certainly happened to the Japanese over places like Iwo (eg Sakais run in with US Hellcats), Mutos fight over the Home islands, and of course in the BOB. It happened all the time on the East front, and in the MTO as well.

Plus I am not convinced that the 262 can be claimed as the only aircraft that could claim this distinction over germany in the time period you mention. I think there were types and situations where the Prop fighters of the LW could also undertake these attacks and have some hope of survival.

I am reading a book at the moment called "1941- Part II - The Blitz to the Non-Stop Offensive" It gives a day by day description of the fights over Western Europe and Britain in that 1940-41 period. There are countless occasions described in the book of a lone fighter (from both sides) being found isolated, surrounded and heavily outnumbered, and making good its escape.

My belief is that the more resources you pour into the battle, the more potential losses you risk. You also stand to take bigger winnings if your forces are successful. The trouble, from the LWs POV from the latter part of '44, was that the dice were so heavily stacked against them, that no matter whether they tried the "Big wing" or the small hit and run strategies, they were going to lose regardless. I never raised that as an argument in this debate. My point is that in most instances, hit and run attacks can be undertaken....you dont need a 262 to undertake that sort of mission. I deliberately spoke about the BoB to highlight that diffrerent situations could result in different outcomes....

 

[Clay_Allison]

Parsifal you can't compare BoB to the situation facing the LW from 1944 to 1945. In 1944 to 45 the Allied bomber streams had escorts with enough fuel to not only stay and fight the interceptors, but also chase them all the way back to their home bases and back if need be. During the BoB escorting LW fighters hardly had enough fuel to stay and fight off any attackers in the first place.

Sorry Parsifal, but there just is no comparison to be made here and I am sticking with my point as-well. A lone 190 attacking a heavily guarded Allied bomber stream in late 1944 to 45 was as good as dead.

call me crazy but I'd call that a "big advantage".

 

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Glider
Blimey, you, me, Bill and FJ all in agreement a first

absolutely NOT the first time - by far

Blimey, lighten up a little

 

[Soren]

Sorry Parsifal but there is no comparing the BoB, or the airwar in the Pacific, with the airwar over western Europe in late 1944 to 45. Allied escorts were many, fast and had long legs, while at the same time the LW were seriously outnumbered and lacked fuel trained pilots.

So while a lone fighter might have been able to attack a bomber stream in 1943 and get away with it, it was an entirely different deal in late 1944 to 45 over western europe. Only a handful of very exotic aircraft could by then hope of attacking solo to achieve something and then get away alive, and that handful was the Me262, Ta152, Do335 He162, and that simply because these a/c featured performance so extraordinary that the escorts would have a tough time shooting them down even if they spotted them in good time.

 

[Timppa]

It is impossible to decide between Bf109(Spain), Fw190A (early), A6M2, P-51B, or F6F. All these planes changed the balance significantly.

As of Me-262, despite of its potential, it did not bring any actual advantage, because:
1. Hopelessly inferior numbers.
2. Inadequate pilot training.
3. Serious technical problems (very unreliable engines,weak langing gear, tyres, trim problems, etc. (see Boehme)). The plane was brought to service way too early (by necessity though).
4. Lack of fuel.

 

[Soren]

Beside the engines being unreliable because of substitute metals being used in production, the Me262 didn't experience any real technical problems. Trim wasn't an issue, the whole horizontal tailplane was adjustable and featured trim taps, and the rudder featured trim tabs as-well. The USAAF however experienced some issues with trim testing one Me262 as all the trim tabs had been welded shut for some mysterious reason.

As for the landing gear being weak, I've heard this before but seen no proof at all.

Anyway technical problems wasn't what kept the Me262 from ruling the skies, that was the lack of numbers, trained pilots fuel as-well as being completely outnumbered in the air.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

As for the landing gear being weak, I've heard this before but seen no proof at all.

Arrow to the Future by Walter Boyne Page 115 - The landing gear was made from low grade steel and drawn seamless tubing for the oleos. Borne states "The resulting structure was relatively light weight and easy to produce, but not very robust, and was the major cause for the aircraft for being out of commission."

 

[FLYBOYJ]

From the people who built the 262 replicas

"As the landing gear was known to be another weak area on the original Me 262, a detailed analysis of landing gear stresses was directed. This process revealed that a shock loading was generated by the spin-up forces of the large, heavy main wheels, which had to be reacted into by the wing landing gear attachment structure. This placed a severe demand upon wing spar area and the airframe simply had to absorb these forces. Over time, this would have had a devastating effect upon the aircraft."

Me 262 PROJECT TECHNICAL DATA