FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Thanks!
Which fighter brought the biggest new advantage when introduced?
- Thread starter Oreo
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Just wait till Erich gets here, he'll only confirm what I've said. Over 450 Allied a/c were claimed by JG7, most of them Soviet a/c, with many more victories not even being claimed because of the desperate situation facing the LW deeming the exercise of noting victories pointless in the pilots eyes. Of these 450 claims approx. 125 to 150 have been confirmed as Western Allied a/c and as actual losses.
JV44 claimed 56 western Allied a/c, 47 of which have been confirmed.
Me262 operational losses, which means whilst landing, taking off or suffering an accident numbered abit over 100 aircraft, the far majority being caused upon landing, Allied fighters ganging up on the Me262.
As Erich himself has put it:
In the observance of the last war months over the Reich the 262 was no match for hundreds of P-51's just looking for 1-2 jets to set upon as the jet zoomed down and then upward through a US heavy bomber formations. Imagine the jet pilots no-one coming to their aid while at least 10-12 P-51s from several different US fighter groups converging to take out this 1 jet, while the other jet may have had a chance to escape or the same scenario appeared time and time again. Yes the Allied escort pilots had guts and were quite a cocky bunch till this day. The jet pilots were brave and new the odds were far against them but they did their duty knowing full well even with their speeds beyond anything the US could come up with could only dream of shooting down maybe 1-2 B-17's or B-24's during 1 mission knowing that dropping the landing gear at their base and even warned of "Indianers" in the area they soon could be a sitting duck target.
Having to constantly deal with 10 to 12 Mustang's up ur arse everytime you attack a bomber stream is gonna doom any fighter. Fact of the matter is that taking the actual situation facing LW fighters into account and you'll soon realize that litterally no other a/c could've achieved the success the Me262 did, Allied or Axis. The Me262 was the only a/c in the latter part of the war which could take off, well knowing there were gonna be at least 10 escorts on its ass after the first attack run (following it all the way until it eventually had to land need be), and still have a hope of being succesful.
Last edited:
drgondog said:
Not sure about that Bill, as many possible LW victories were left unclaimed during the latter part of the war, causing a high number of Allied a/c being listed as MIA because there was no way of finding the German side of the events. Many of these a/c MIA no doubt are actual kills made by the LW.
Another thing to consider is that whilst overclaiming did occur on both sides it would've been a much harder exercise in the Me262, seeing that there was no mistaking if you had hit your opponent or not, the Me262's armament needing only to land just 1 hit to bring down a fighter and 3 to bring down a bomber. Hitting your enemy with the Mk108 wouldn't cause him to merely pour some smoke and dive away, many pilots often mistaking this as a kill. No the Mk108 blasted the target if a succesful hit was scored, leaving it seriously crippled, something there was no mistaking of.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
The argument that I have is something that JoeB has discussed for years - CLAIMS vs. confirmed kills. Even JV44's claims were "off" by 20%. Apply that to JG7 and think we might have more believable numbers. Additionally, how much of the Me 262 fighter strength was directed at the Soviets - when in reality it was really needed to stop the bombers pounding Germany day and night?
Not disputing anything there, it's just funny, having to deal with the described situation when facing heavy bomber streams and escorting fighters, when did the 262 have time to shoot down over 400 Soviet aircraft, especially when one of the most numerous fighters in the east, the Yak-9 is only "CLAIMED" twice by the 262????
Last edited:
Erich will clear this up FLYBOYJ, I've been following discussions on the matter on a different forum where he brought up some details on this some time ago, and I clearly remember him stating that many of the victories acquired by the Me262 in the east never even got claimed.
The actual number of kills claimed by Me262's was around 735 enemy a/c according to other sources as-well.
The actual number of kills claimed by Me262's was around 735 enemy a/c according to other sources as-well.
drgondog
Major
A legitimate point - but overclaiming occurred not just to perception of damage but also 'just because' one decided to enter a claim when there was no witness - or conversely not claiming at all because there was no witness.
The difference (between Allies and LW) at that late stage of the war is that the review process for the Allies was more methodical and consistent simply because they were a.) winning the air battle, b.) they had the process in place and the circumstances of the war did not force abandonment of the process.
A specific example occurred in the 355th on March 2, 1945 when a 358FS pilot had drop tank feed problems and returned early, spotted some 109s on the deck and attacked. He claimed 5 destroyed and one probable but was given zero credit because no witness and his camera failed. Coulda happened but didn't meet the standard - but there are records of the claim, and records of the rejection, (and all the records of Mustangs lost or damaged).
The Luftwaffe records are missing and much of the data for late 1944 through EOW are sketchy unit records and personal recollections - making so much of this discussion opinions about opinions rather than debating verified and official data after review process and recorded decisions.
Simple fact - I don't know how many kills and damage the Me 262 scored, or how many were actually shot down or damaged, or how many were lost to accident.. nor does anybody else for certain.
The difference between the WWII data (re: Germany) vs Korean War data is that Germany was being overrun and neither US nor China/Russia was being forced to abandon records and process - so long after the war at least there is complete documentation available even if the claim to award process is flawed.
Glider
Captain
It would be interesting to see how the claims seem to have gone from 150 to 600 and now 735. Also, one small point, I am confident that the RAF and Russian airforce shot some of the 262's down. The USAAF good as they were didn't have a monopoly on them.
drgondog
Major
Not to pile on Soren but I have some questions about Boehme's data.
First a comment. To my knowledge nobody has gone to the trouble of trying to match all USAAF/8th AF FC Macrs to establish recorded opinions of witnesses regarding actual cause of loss. I will have to research a little more but my findings regarding definitive observations of a loss to a Me 262 are few. IIRC it is about 6 for sure and about 3 'maybe's'. This includes 'unknown' but Me 262s seen in area'
One would have to research all the USAAF ETO macrs to try to pinpoint bomber losses (both 8th and 9th AF plus 15th).
What does Boehme cite as his research sources and processes?
Same question for 'awards'. I literally have gone over every award in USAF 85 and 8th AF VCB to match award to 'type' - and published the result to both Mike Williams site as well as here. Frank Olynyk is the only other one I know of who has performed the same study and I defer to him when we have a conflict.
What is Boehme's source and process to arrive at US fighter awards of '66'? as I have the data for each squadron, each pilot and each group for all of 8th FC and my number is 116.5
I don't mind finding a superior methodology but wondering what he did to arrive at a conclusion that ALL of USAAF fighters only reached 66.. I haven't even touched 9th AF (except 354FG) or 15th AF records yet.
First a comment. To my knowledge nobody has gone to the trouble of trying to match all USAAF/8th AF FC Macrs to establish recorded opinions of witnesses regarding actual cause of loss. I will have to research a little more but my findings regarding definitive observations of a loss to a Me 262 are few. IIRC it is about 6 for sure and about 3 'maybe's'. This includes 'unknown' but Me 262s seen in area'
One would have to research all the USAAF ETO macrs to try to pinpoint bomber losses (both 8th and 9th AF plus 15th).
What does Boehme cite as his research sources and processes?
Same question for 'awards'. I literally have gone over every award in USAF 85 and 8th AF VCB to match award to 'type' - and published the result to both Mike Williams site as well as here. Frank Olynyk is the only other one I know of who has performed the same study and I defer to him when we have a conflict.
What is Boehme's source and process to arrive at US fighter awards of '66'? as I have the data for each squadron, each pilot and each group for all of 8th FC and my number is 116.5
I don't mind finding a superior methodology but wondering what he did to arrive at a conclusion that ALL of USAAF fighters only reached 66.. I haven't even touched 9th AF (except 354FG) or 15th AF records yet.
drgondog
Major
I totally agree - the advantage the USAAF had was solely numbers and range - and at that stage of the war there was overwhelming superiority of numbers of fighters available to attack Me 262s all over Germany. RAF and VVS and 9th 15th AF were also active in Eastern and Southeastern Germany the last several months of the war.
Bill,
I have no doubt that a good number of LW a/c MIA are USAAF kills and vice versa, that was my point infact, and we seem to agree on that as-well. What I also wish to point out though is that claims made in the Me262 were inherently more accurate than those made by other fighters, simply because of the fact that the armament ruled out the possibility of just damaging your target if it was anything smaller than a bomber. I bet many bombers managed to limb back home after being attacked by a Me262, the B-17 was one tough a/c. But fighters would've simply been blasted out of the sky if they found themselves infront of the Me262's guns.
As for confirmation of kills during war time, well the Germans didn't slack on their confirmation procedure, the problem was however that the majority of the claims made were never confirmed seeing that the OKL was too busy. In the end this resulted in pilots simply refraining from making claims after victory at all, what was the point anyhow.
Glider,
Different sources state different things. Boehme claims that JG7 claimed 450 kills with the Me262, most on the eastern front. Approx. 125 to 150 western Allied a/c have been confirmed as shot down by the Me262's from JG7. JV44 claimed another 56 Allied a/c shot down in their Me262's, 47 of which have been confirmed.
So 172 to 197 western allied a/c have been confirmed to have been shot down by the Me262. (There were undoubtedly more shot down in reality)
Another source claims that the LW in all made ~735 claims with the Me262, the majority on the eastern front.
I have no doubt that a good number of LW a/c MIA are USAAF kills and vice versa, that was my point infact, and we seem to agree on that as-well. What I also wish to point out though is that claims made in the Me262 were inherently more accurate than those made by other fighters, simply because of the fact that the armament ruled out the possibility of just damaging your target if it was anything smaller than a bomber. I bet many bombers managed to limb back home after being attacked by a Me262, the B-17 was one tough a/c. But fighters would've simply been blasted out of the sky if they found themselves infront of the Me262's guns.
As for confirmation of kills during war time, well the Germans didn't slack on their confirmation procedure, the problem was however that the majority of the claims made were never confirmed seeing that the OKL was too busy. In the end this resulted in pilots simply refraining from making claims after victory at all, what was the point anyhow.
Glider,
Different sources state different things. Boehme claims that JG7 claimed 450 kills with the Me262, most on the eastern front. Approx. 125 to 150 western Allied a/c have been confirmed as shot down by the Me262's from JG7. JV44 claimed another 56 Allied a/c shot down in their Me262's, 47 of which have been confirmed.
So 172 to 197 western allied a/c have been confirmed to have been shot down by the Me262. (There were undoubtedly more shot down in reality)
Another source claims that the LW in all made ~735 claims with the Me262, the majority on the eastern front.
My point in short:
A confirmed German kill is just as accurate as any confirmed Allied kill, no more no less, regardless of the time period. But by the end of the war many German pilots didn't even claim their kills, and when they did they knew it would take months even years before they were confirmed by the OKL. In the end the OKL couldn't keep up and were so far behind that many kill claims made during the 44 to 45 period never even reached examination.
The good thing about USAAF records is that they have the confirmed victories listed, which is a heck of a lot better than just having a pile of claims lying around like the LW did.
A confirmed German kill is just as accurate as any confirmed Allied kill, no more no less, regardless of the time period. But by the end of the war many German pilots didn't even claim their kills, and when they did they knew it would take months even years before they were confirmed by the OKL. In the end the OKL couldn't keep up and were so far behind that many kill claims made during the 44 to 45 period never even reached examination.
The good thing about USAAF records is that they have the confirmed victories listed, which is a heck of a lot better than just having a pile of claims lying around like the LW did.
Hello Soren
Quote :"450 Allied aircraft were claimed shot down by JG7 alone, most on the eastern front, of which there are many more victories which were never claimed. Around 125 to 150 kills have been confirmed by cross examination as losses to Me262's in the west. Furthermore JV44 claimed 56 Allied aircraft shot down, 47 of which have been confirmed by cross examination as-well.
So a 6:1 kill ratio for the Me262 seems not only true, but conservative at that when one considers the many Soviet a/c shot down which werent even claimed.
As the situation got more and more desperate for the LW they in the end stopped writing claims for their victories alltogether, the whole exercise seeming pointless.
P. Source: Manfred Boehme"
Can you give more exact source because in his JG 7 book Boehme writes on p. 173 "According to conservative estimates JG 7 shot down about 20 Russian aircraft during the final weeks of the war."?
On p. 189 while noting that to many LW pilots Me 262 must have seemed like a kind of "life insurance" he noted that loss rate was high. "At 15%, losses in action among the Me 262s which made contact with enemy – if the 56.5% of the unluckly 10.4.45 are left out – are surprising high." And noted that "This rate of loss is not much lower than that of the conventional fighter units with piston-engined a/c."
Richard T. Eger had counted from the table in the book that between Jan. 1 and May 3 1945 JG 7 scored 225 to 226 confirmed victories and 37 probables.
To Drgondog, of these 30 were P-51s, 2 P-51 recons., 2 P-51 recons. ? [? Is in the list, not mine] and 2 P-51s British.
Juha
Quote :"450 Allied aircraft were claimed shot down by JG7 alone, most on the eastern front, of which there are many more victories which were never claimed. Around 125 to 150 kills have been confirmed by cross examination as losses to Me262's in the west. Furthermore JV44 claimed 56 Allied aircraft shot down, 47 of which have been confirmed by cross examination as-well.
So a 6:1 kill ratio for the Me262 seems not only true, but conservative at that when one considers the many Soviet a/c shot down which werent even claimed.
As the situation got more and more desperate for the LW they in the end stopped writing claims for their victories alltogether, the whole exercise seeming pointless.
P. Source: Manfred Boehme"
Can you give more exact source because in his JG 7 book Boehme writes on p. 173 "According to conservative estimates JG 7 shot down about 20 Russian aircraft during the final weeks of the war."?
On p. 189 while noting that to many LW pilots Me 262 must have seemed like a kind of "life insurance" he noted that loss rate was high. "At 15%, losses in action among the Me 262s which made contact with enemy – if the 56.5% of the unluckly 10.4.45 are left out – are surprising high." And noted that "This rate of loss is not much lower than that of the conventional fighter units with piston-engined a/c."
Richard T. Eger had counted from the table in the book that between Jan. 1 and May 3 1945 JG 7 scored 225 to 226 confirmed victories and 37 probables.
To Drgondog, of these 30 were P-51s, 2 P-51 recons., 2 P-51 recons. ? [? Is in the list, not mine] and 2 P-51s British.
Juha
Last edited:
drgondog
Major
Soren - the 116.5 are confirmed kills - not claims. The USAF 85 names them 'Credits' not claims.. same with USAAF VCB.
Both record the Awards/Credits after the claims are reviewed and altered as may be the award if down graded.
Therefore Boehme made adjustments without basis
drgondog
Major
Juha - here are All the 8th AF pilots lost in engagements w/Me 262 plus several 'speculatives'
1 Nov - Alison 77/20FG near Henglo - KIA
8 Nov - Hoffert 359/356FG near Osnabruck - POW
8 Nov - McElvey 359/356FG near Osnabruck - POW
30 Dec - Hawkins 503/339FG near Soltau - KIA
30 Dec - Mankie 503/339FG near Westertimke - POW
9 Feb - Browning 363/357FG MAC w/262 near Fulda - KIA
22 Feb - Radley 383/364FG near Stendal -KIA
25 Mar - Roebuck 487/352FG near Ulzen - KIA
30 Mar - Wagner 505/339 near Hamburg - KIA
Suspicious
8 Nov - Corwin 363/357FG - landed near Termode - WIA/DOW - last seen chasing 262
19 Mar - Enoch 368/359FG - crashed chasing 262 on deck - Flak?
17 Apr - Preddy 503/339FG - last seen chasing 262 over airfield near Prague - flak?
17 Apr - Reuter 503/339FG - last seen chasing 262 over airfield near Prague - flak?
The 'other' Mustang group (in 9th AF) was 354th and did not lose any Mustangs to German jets of any kind (so far in my research through February 1945. So, there is a confirmed loss count of 9 Mustangs in 8th and 9th AF. It is extremely unlikely that the 15th had anywhere near the engagements w/Me 262s as the 8th and 9th... but I have no facts on this assumption.
drgondog
Major
If the Tony Woods list is an accurate compilation of LW awards, the LW overclaims of the April 24, November 2 and November 26, 1944 battles have about a ratio of nearly 2 awards (confirmed) by LW to actual losses of 8th AF for those big battles.
As you know I have spent a lot of time researching those battles (both sides) for my new book. Erich has been a big help as we have collaborated quite a bit -
Using the April 24 mission as a specific case, JG3, JG26 and JG27 (Me 109) were awarded 12 Mustangs (Woods) plus one P-47 (impossible) surrounding Munich area - where 4 (3 'unk cause' but probably shot down so I counted them as shot down) Mustangs were shot down and two were lost in MaC w/Me 110's. One other was shot down by flak.
The 355 and 357FG claims closely match the 109 and 110 losses (one overclaim for each, but several crashlanded and not recorded as a 'loss' by LW) recorded by the LW in that area - but also possible that the B-17s got a few of the total..which would result in higher overclaim than 2.
That pretty well summarizes comparable Credit/Actual experience for LW Awards on 2 and 26 November.
If there is a better source of collective accounting than Woods I have not had access to it.
Hello Drgondog
Thanks for the P-51 losses of the 8th FC. When one thinks the environment where Me 262 pilots fought I'm not surprising that there was overclaiming. They were flying high speed plane and knew that almost every time there were numerous Allied fighters around trying to get to proper bounce position to knock them down, so it was essential to keep speed up and to keep sharp lookout around, especially on upper hemisphere. Nobody in right mind would began circling around and so slow down to make sure that the victim was really going down.
Juha
Thanks for the P-51 losses of the 8th FC. When one thinks the environment where Me 262 pilots fought I'm not surprising that there was overclaiming. They were flying high speed plane and knew that almost every time there were numerous Allied fighters around trying to get to proper bounce position to knock them down, so it was essential to keep speed up and to keep sharp lookout around, especially on upper hemisphere. Nobody in right mind would began circling around and so slow down to make sure that the victim was really going down.
Juha
drgondog
Major
You are most welcome.. I wish the 9th and 15th AF did half the job of records as the 8th AF.
btw there were no 'confirmed' P-47 (8th AF 56/78FG) losses, but there were conversely very few awards -
Ditto P-38.
The Me 262 that hung around several Mustangs to manuever for extra passes lost airspeed and all advantage. I think most of that type were referred to as 'dead'.
There was one eyewitness encounter of a 355th pilot observing a bounce by a lone Me 262 on a trailing Mustang Group. The 355th two ship element fired a deflection shot scoring some hits and the 262 turned back - right into the teeth of ~ 2 squadrons of Mustangs chasing him! He had no chance of escape and he didn't.
It probably was the 357th FG as they had awards in that are on Nov 8th.
Glider
Captain
Interesting statement. So the Luftwaffe claimed approx 185 allied aircraft shot down by the Me262 a high proportion of which were bombers. Then the USAAF claimed about 115 Me 262 kills and the RAF around 30 ( I don't know the exact number but this seems about right with 15 claimed by Tempests) then in fighter combat the Me 262 lost out.
Going back to the title of the thread, what exactly was the advantage gained by the Me262. I certainly agree that it had a huge potential advantage but what was the actual advantage gained.
Bill,
Those 116.5 victories, were they all achieved in the air or were there some being the result of strafing?
A little over 100 Me262's were lost in actual combat, most whilst on landing approach or returning to base. Accidents are counted here as-well, which were many. So unless the USAAF credits include strafing attacks then it seems like they are overstated by roughly a 2:1 factor as-well. The same as the LW did in some cases. Which is perfectly normal.
The LW USAAF confirmation procedures were also remarkably similar. If two other pilots didn't wittness the kill then gun camera footage was demanded by the OKL for a confirmation of the kill, either that or a verification recieved from ground forces having located the wreck of the enemy a/c. This procedure was followed slavishly until the very end of hostilities by the OKL. I believe the USAAF procedure was similar to this.
Those 116.5 victories, were they all achieved in the air or were there some being the result of strafing?
A little over 100 Me262's were lost in actual combat, most whilst on landing approach or returning to base. Accidents are counted here as-well, which were many. So unless the USAAF credits include strafing attacks then it seems like they are overstated by roughly a 2:1 factor as-well. The same as the LW did in some cases. Which is perfectly normal.
The LW USAAF confirmation procedures were also remarkably similar. If two other pilots didn't wittness the kill then gun camera footage was demanded by the OKL for a confirmation of the kill, either that or a verification recieved from ground forces having located the wreck of the enemy a/c. This procedure was followed slavishly until the very end of hostilities by the OKL. I believe the USAAF procedure was similar to this.
