drgondog
Major
Glider - the 8th AF were credited w/116.5. Those credits do not reflect 9th or 12 AF or any that actually were shot down by bombers
Which fighter brought the biggest new advantage when introduced?
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Glider - the 8th AF were credited w/116.5. Those credits do not reflect 9th or 12 AF or any that actually were shot down by bombers
The actual advantage(s) gained were amongst other things a huge advantage in performance. Once airborne nothing the Allies had could touch the Me262 if it was well flown. Problem was however that the lack of fuel trained pilots, as-well as the huge numerical disadvantage the German suffered from, kept them from ever being capable of capitalizing on the actual advantages the Me262 introduced.
As for its performance against fighters, it far from lost out, instead it outshined everything else out there. Several pilots scoring over 5 fighters in the Me262 without being shot down once. Also remember that the far majority of Me262's lost in combat were so by being bounced whilst trying to land or return to base. The escorts ganged up on the Me262's everytime one was spotted, never allowing a fair fight.
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To summarize recent posts, I haven't seen anything that credibly contradicts what I said. Foreman and Harvy give only a handful of USAAF fighters certainly downed by Me 262's (and hardly any other Allied fighters either), and Bill says he found something like 10 or less looking more carefully, I assume 8th AF, and there's no reason in F=H or generally to suppose a lot of fighter losses by the other US numbered AF's or the RAF to jets. Whatever the 262's claimed or were officially credited with, it doesn't seem plausible to maintain that they actually shot down many Allied piston engine fighters.
OTOH Foreman and Harvy give, case by case with each episode explained, as I counted up looking at my notes, 113 Me-262's downed in air combat, almost all by Allied fighters (the great bulk by the USAAF), German losses which correspond with Allied claims/credits (the 262 losses represented around 80% of the Allied credits, 8/9/15th AF, RAF, combined). I haven't seen any credible reason to throw out F+H's count as at least approximately correct.
So, on Me-262 fighter v fighter I don't see much doubt: in the circumstances prevailing the Me 262 was ineffective against piston engine fighters in air combat.
As usual, I don't see a reason to obsess about claims/credits when actual losses are *generally* known (of course not completely, never are 100% completely with causes 100% certain).
As far as jet claims being more accurate, the Soviets racked up an extremely high overclaim rate in Korea, and one of the legitimate reasons given is the split second nature of hit and run attacks by jets, especially with big caliber cannon armament. In that situation too the MiG-15 only needed to land a hit or few to score a kill, but the MiG pilots consistently overoptimisitically believed they'd done so when they had not. And in general, narrative explanations of why claims 'must have been' accurate are useless. The only way to tell is to check opposing losses.
Joe
OTOH Foreman and Harvy give, case by case with each episode explained, as I counted up looking at my notes, 113 Me-262's downed in air combat, almost all by Allied fighters (the great bulk by the USAAF), German losses which correspond with Allied claims/credits (the 262 losses represented around 80% of the Allied credits, 8/9/15th AF, RAF, combined). I haven't seen any credible reason to throw out F+H's count as at least approximately correct.
So, on Me-262 fighter v fighter I don't see much doubt: in the circumstances prevailing the Me 262 was ineffective against piston engine fighters in air combat.
As usual, I don't see a reason to obsess about claims/credits when actual losses are *generally* known (of course not completely, never are 100% completely with causes 100% certain).
As far as jet claims being more accurate, the Soviets racked up an extremely high overclaim rate in Korea, and one of the legitimate reasons given is the split second nature of hit and run attacks by jets, especially with big caliber cannon armament. In that situation too the MiG-15 only needed to land a hit or few to score a kill, but the MiG pilots consistently overoptimisitically believed they'd done so when they had not. And in general, narrative explanations of why claims 'must have been' accurate are useless. The only way to tell is to check opposing losses.
Joe
JoeB said:
Come on now, that's just stupid. How can one conclude that it was ineffective against fighters from the data we have available?? Does the fact that most Me262's shot down were so whilst trying to land make it a bad fighter??? Or how about that it was normally outnumbered 12 to 1 in every encounter??
Sorry JoeB but to claim that the Me262 was ineffective against piston engined fighters is to be extremely ignorant and unable to look objectively on the issue at hand. The plane was most often outnumbered, shot up whilst landing or returning to base, in short it was never a fair fight; war isn't.
Take ANY Axis or Allied fighter and give it the tasks that the Me262's were carrying out from late 44 to 45, and NOT ONE will even approach being as successful as the Me262.
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Hello Soren
Quote: " A little over 100 Me262's were lost in actual combat…"
How so? According to Boehme's JG 7 book JG 7 alone lost 51 pilots killed and 12 badly wounded, add JV 44 losses and especially losses of KG(J) 54, which was badly mauled in air more than once, and losses of other KG(J)s. And then losses of KG 51 and the other non-fighter units. Now I can understand that Boehme has found some more claims but I doubt that he had found that losses were smaller than those he had found when he wrote the JG 7 book.
Quote:" Once airborne nothing the Allies had could touch the Me262 if it was well flown."
Best late war Allied fighters were capable of catching Me 262 if they could use extra speed gained by dive, have timed their bounce correctly, preferably with some surprise element on their side and with adequate shooting skill was shown by pilot(s).
Juha
Quote: " A little over 100 Me262's were lost in actual combat…"
How so? According to Boehme's JG 7 book JG 7 alone lost 51 pilots killed and 12 badly wounded, add JV 44 losses and especially losses of KG(J) 54, which was badly mauled in air more than once, and losses of other KG(J)s. And then losses of KG 51 and the other non-fighter units. Now I can understand that Boehme has found some more claims but I doubt that he had found that losses were smaller than those he had found when he wrote the JG 7 book.
Quote:" Once airborne nothing the Allies had could touch the Me262 if it was well flown."
Best late war Allied fighters were capable of catching Me 262 if they could use extra speed gained by dive, have timed their bounce correctly, preferably with some surprise element on their side and with adequate shooting skill was shown by pilot(s).
Juha
drgondog
Major
Most of the encounter reports with 262s fell into three categories
1. Long range shot that scored on an engine, slowing it down - often after long chase or high deflection
2. Diving bounce on 262s below them, getting close enough for decent shot
3. Long chase and catching the 262 trying to land or bring the chasing fighters in range of airfield flak.
Most of the kills at both high and low altitude were made because the 262 lost power in an engine and no longer had the legs to 'get out of sight' and the Mustang had plenty of fuel to close.
drgondog
Major
Joe - what sources do Foreman and Harvy give for their 262 roll ups? There is really only one possible combination to arrive at a definitive 'credit' for USAAF - that is USAF 85 for the credit for that pilot on that day - with a throrough review of the Encounter Reports (and USAAF VCB reports) to sort out the Me 262s.
If they used that approach the 116.5 result for 8th AF should be where they finally end...
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I could believe that....
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Sorry Soren but the man is right - "Fair Fight?" Come on, are we talking about a school yard here?!?!? In the end the "unfair" situation played into the hands of the victors and because of the situation, in the end to Me 262 was ineffective as its presence made no difference to the outcome as we all know, and as the old saying goes "all's fair in love in war."
Hello Drgondog
From USAAF and British combat reports I have seen I have got exactly same impression. The few British which I remember best told the same story; max speed dive, pilots trying to take most out of their planes everyone eager to get into firing position, no old time polite queuing there more like a pack of dogs during fox hunt, usually someone got first a few telling hits and Me slowed down or Me pilot began wave after noticing that he was fired at, then more hits at shorter range and that was that. Or high deflection shot and "thanks for the gyro sight"
Hello Flyboyj
The book is published 17 years ago and Richard's message is from 2003 and he was in contact with Boehme at that time, so Boehme might have found some more claims lately but massive increase isn't very likely. Soren has not given his exact source even if I have asked that, so it is difficult to say more.
Juha
From USAAF and British combat reports I have seen I have got exactly same impression. The few British which I remember best told the same story; max speed dive, pilots trying to take most out of their planes everyone eager to get into firing position, no old time polite queuing there more like a pack of dogs during fox hunt, usually someone got first a few telling hits and Me slowed down or Me pilot began wave after noticing that he was fired at, then more hits at shorter range and that was that. Or high deflection shot and "thanks for the gyro sight"
Hello Flyboyj
The book is published 17 years ago and Richard's message is from 2003 and he was in contact with Boehme at that time, so Boehme might have found some more claims lately but massive increase isn't very likely. Soren has not given his exact source even if I have asked that, so it is difficult to say more.
Juha
No he isn't right FLYBOYJ, and knowing how intellectual a person you are (and no thats not a snide remark or sarcasm, I mean it) I honestly haven't got the slightest clue as to how you can't see that right now. He claims the Me262 was ineffective against fighters, which is just downright wrong to put it mildly and goes against what every person who actually got to fly the bird says.
I mean come now, facts are on the table FLYBOYJ, the Me262 was mush faster than any Allied fighter and had much superior climb rate and high speed handling. I goes without saying that if flown well it was near untouchable, but like many historians have pointed out over the years by late 1944 the Germans weren't capable of capitalizing on this advantage, there simply being too little fuel skilled pilots left to fly the bird in any meaningful numbers and the LW being completely outnumbered in the air. No a/c made during WW2 would've made a bigger difference than the Me262, quite simply because no other a/c had the performance to even attempt it.
A lone Me262 could attack a bomber stream swarmed by escorts and still hope getting away with it. What other a/c, Axis or Allied could do that? Answer: NONE.
And then there's British RAF chief test pilot Eric Brown whom rated the Me-262 as flat out the best fighter aircraft of the entire war. And he stated that he gave the 262 this rating having flown all versions of the Spitfire and the Mustang along with the Bf-109, FW-190 and Ta-152.
And as Adolf Galland said himself:
"if I had had 500 operational Me-262s I could have stopped the daylight bombing raids."
There's a reason renowned veterans historians alike say it [Me262] could've changed the war.
I am confident Bill Erich will agree with me on this.
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parsifal
Colonel
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drgondog
Major
I do pretty much agree with this.
The only disagreement is that in general the Luftwaffe put their top remaining pilots in the 262 - so while there was no easy way to transition into a 262 - except 'fly it' - the remaining pilots were far more skilled than the ones they were putting into the 190 and 109s.
drgondog
Major
Having agreed with Soren about the 262, and I voted the 262 also, Joe B has made very good points about the Zero - and the Mustang also made a huge impact despite not being significantly better in performance than the 109 or 190 as the 262 was to the Mustang..
This is an interesting thread despite not have a metric base for the judgments -
This is an interesting thread despite not have a metric base for the judgments -
drgondog
Major
Agreed that not all 262 pilots were Experten, particularly in the KG units. The 262 gave the lesser skilled pilots a better chance of survival but still the average skill and experience level of the pilots assigned to 262s in 1945 were better than the ones getting the 190s and 109s.
It would have been stupid to consciously downgrade the 262 in combat by de selecting better pilot candidates to the conventional fighters.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
And there's nothing there I'll disagree with BUT - was the 262 effective enough to prevent the Mustangs from doing their jobs or from inflicting enough bomber losses so the 8th AF would halt or curtail the bombing of Germany in the spring of 1945?
And did they do it to the effectively to stop the bombing (see comment one) NO
And again I agree with all the statements but you're not "seeing the forest from the tress." "Could have, would have, should have." Despite how good it was and how advanced it was, it could not stop what it was up against, and even if the Soviet losses are substantiated, the 262 inflicted only 1% losses against the 8AF. Yes it was out numbered but as stated "all's fair in love in war."
In the end it COULD NOT accomplish its objective despite being the best fighter of WW2, and yes all reasons given are valid, but in the end it WAS ineffective....
And oh by the way - I too voted for the -262.
drgondog
Major
lmao - I went through the same mental gyrations Joe..
