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England ceased to be a political or military entity with the act of union in 1707. It would actually make more sense to say Britain survived the battle of England or Kent, as Kent would be where any landing took place. It isn't offensive it is just wrong/inaccurate, its easy to get confused sometimes but I would have thought it easy to understand that the Battle of Britain was about the survival of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, England does not appear.I'm not sure what the issue is here, is it somehow offensive to say England instead of "Great Britain"? I have tried to be careful to typically indicate "RAF / Commonwealth" to include the important contributions of Australian, South African and New Zealand pilots. Is this something to do with Welsh or Scots pilots ? I admit I'm baffled.
Its easy to forget Canada, all tucked away down there...I have tried to be careful to typically indicate "RAF / Commonwealth" to include the important contributions of Australian, South African and New Zealand pilots.
Its easy to forget Canada, all tucked away down there...
You could ask yourself why you habitually write English in the first place, it cannot come from any reputable source. There were not only Indian pilots but also some from USA too, like Billy Fisk and John McGee. That is why its best just to say RAF. Last of the second world war Sikh RAF fighter pilots - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.Lol... sorry, no offense to Canada, the (arguably) best P-40 pilot is from there James Edwards.
Canada, Northern Ireland, Wales, England, the Isle of Man. Australia, New Zealand, Bermuda, South Africa, Rhodesia, and the British Virgin Islands. Were there any Indian pilots?
I'll just write UK / Commonwealth from now on.
USA history books use the term "English" long after it ceased to be correct. All the RAF bomber fields around my home were stationed by RCAF squadrons, however they were all part of the RAF, some further south had French squadrons but likewise they were flying for the RAF.Yes but RAF doesn't include RAAF, RCAF, RNZAF or RSAF right? Some Colonials fought in the RAF but some fought in their own units too. In North Africa there were RAAF and RSAF squadrons and in the Pacific RNZAF. In the UK itself I believe there were RCAF Typhoon squadrons right?
I write "English" because it's common use where I live to describe people from the British Isles and their language, and it's also the correct term for the (far older) historical periods I'm most familiar with on a semi-professional basis. Of course your Islands have gone by many names and have had many different rulers over the centuries.
Maybe you didn't see this part of my postingresp:
Here is my problem with the above very convincing list of claims: With the exception of V-1 flying bombs, pilots flying P-40s faced exactly the same aircraft and shot them down, without taking heavy casualties. Which seems significant to me. Not just "over the desert" but over Italy, Yugoslavia, various Mediterranean Islands, and the South of France.
It also seemed to always have a low loss rate against both AAA and enemy aircraft which I think may have something to do with maneuverability. As noted above it apparently had the lowest loss rate of any fighter in Soviet use. I know my opinion counts for nada in here but just reviewing MAW IV it looks like P-40 losses were lower than most other Allied types.
Yes but RAF doesn't include RAAF, RCAF, RNZAF or RSAF right? Some Colonials fought in the RAF but some fought in their own units too. In North Africa there were RAAF and RSAF squadrons and in the Pacific RNZAF. In the UK itself I believe there were RCAF Typhoon squadrons right?
Shooting down FW 190s that are trying to intercept the bombers you are escorting (even if the bombers are other P-40s) is different than shooting down tip and run raiders, They have no interest in combat. They want to get in, drop the bomb and get out. Now if we look hard enough we can find that probably a number of aircraft happened to shoot down one or more tip and run raiders simply by being in the right place at the right time, doesn't mean they were good at it.
If the Typhoon is better than the Spitfire of the same time and if the Spitfire is as fast as the P-40 why are we to believe the P-40 can do what the Spitfire cannot do on a consistent basis as far as chasing down tip and run raiders.
We also seen to be spreading the time line out. The Early Typhoons employed against the tip and run raiders had pretty much standard protection.(self sealing tanks BP windscreen some armor behind the seat and perhaps another piece or two) By the time of Normandy they Typhoons doing the bombing and rocketing had hundreds of extra pounds of armor. But hey, the P-40 is more maneuverable and doesn't need armor against ground fire because it is a harder target? While flying slower?
Since the Typhoon was never used in Italy we don't know it's survival rate against AA in that theater.
And before we start up with the the Germans used the same AA guns in both theaters, it isn't so much the guns but the quantity/scale of issue. Or perhaps it is better to say the number of AA guns per sq mi of territory flown over.
We also need to remember that while the channel was only 20 miles wide in one spot it was over 100 miles wide in a lot of other areas.
P-40s acting as fighter bombers may have had a much more restricted area of action than the Typhoons.
There were differences in the two theaters and it wasn't just escorting B-17/B-24s.
One would think with all your research you would know that the squadrons in the RAF composed of other nationalities were under the control of the RAF.
The situation was changing rapidly in 1942. The Typhoon was seen as the future fighter for the RAF but by the time it was sorted the Spitfire had the Griffon engine and was coming into service. The Spitfire MKIX was also in service which had high altitude performance the Typhoon lacked, there was little doubt that the Griffon would be able to do the same with a two stage supercharger. From what is posted on this thread it seems the fighter squadrons formed with Typhoons remained as fighter squadrons, the later squadrons were as fighter bombers. 8 rockets fired from a Typhoon are no more or less devastating than fired from a Hurricane, but your chances of getting back and doing it again were much higher with a Typhoon. As I understand it a fighter bomber and its pilot must be divorced from the air war, if they aren't, they wont use their cannon on ground targets but save the ammunition for any air to air combat, which means they are not doing their job. Once a typhoon had hit a target its only job was to get itself home, essentially the Typhoons themselves were tip and run raiders, just a bit faster.If the Typhoon is better than the Spitfire of the same time and if the Spitfire is as fast as the P-40 why are we to believe the P-40 can do what the Spitfire cannot do on a consistent basis as far as chasing down tip and run raiders.
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Maybe you didn't see this part of my posting
PS this isn't tolling its trying to get an answer to valid points saying why the P40 would have suffered in this role. Your stock reply Because they did OK in the desert doesn't count because we are talking about how effective the P40 would have been over France and occupied territories. Where the role and the issues are very different.
a) If the FW190 doesn't want to get caught and is 30mph faster than you, then you are not going to catch it.
b) In Europe the role was primarily GA which means that all the other points are valid. Why was it mainly GA? simple, the RAF had plenty of Spit IX's as cover
PS you never did try to explain why the P40 was removed from Europe so quickly
PLease make your mind up. Are you comparing the P40 against the Typhoon where the Typhoon operated ie Northern France or are you not.To be clear, I was referring to Italy and the South of France and Yugoslavia, which having been to all three places I can assure you they are not generally deserts.
PS The P-40 was removed from NW Europe because of the altitude limitations of the Allison engine that powered it. Merlin (XX / 28) engined P-40s were a bit better in that department though still limited. But probably Ok down low.
There were reasons the allies built their own ports in Normandy rather than trying to capture one.I can't say that for sure though if it's true there was vastly more flak over Calais than Salerno that would be a legitimate reason that would require faster planes.
But a skilled pilot could sneak in behind a big wave.