Which US WWII fighter shot down the most enemy aircraft?

[GregP]

R Leonard,

what is the source of your numbers? Is the data in a form where you can see the pilot, the type of the victor, the type of the victim, etc?

 

[R Leonard]

From a 1946 US Navy report I have 5165 kills in the Pacific and 8 kills in the ETO for 5168. This is from the US Navy, not made up by me. It might have been revies downward to 5163 ... but the number is quite valid.

You can check it out yourself online anytime. 19 to 1 kills ratio for teh Hellcat; nothing else came close. Next closest in US service was about 13 : 1, and that isn't even close.

You might want to read my post above re F6F scores. I am well aware of the source for your numbers and even mention it in my post, indeed the Naval Aviation Combat Statistics - World War II produced by a team led by CDR Stuart Barber USNR for OpNav is one of the first places I go for data. You might note in my post on the F6F, above, I am careful there to point out the 5163 that jumps out at one from that report for an F6F total is only the credits for, as is generically noted "Fighters" (3,718) and "Bombers" (1,445) and does not count the Japanese equivalents of VOS/VCS, VP, VN, VR, or VJ types which appear much later in the report. If you want a full count for F6Fs you have to figure those in. Go look at the tables again and, indeed, the entire report; they were very careful about how they phrased things and specified categories. If you don't pay attention to the nuances, it is very easy to make a mis-count. Also, look at Table 1 again. It does not say anything about Pacific only; the title is "Consolidated Summary of Navy and Marine Carrier and Land‑Based Air Operations and Results For Entire War," that means the 8 F6F credits for VF-74 and VOF-1 in Operation Dragoon are included, you are counting them twice.

Olynyk, on the other hand, author of Stars and Bars - A Tribute to the American Fighter Ace, 1920-1973 and the recognized historian for the American Fighter Aces Association, went back through the combat reports and connected the dots with a pilot name to each credit, probable, or damaged, and the enemy type cited in the report, something not found in Barber's team's Naval Aviation Combat Statistics. You might want to try to avail yourself of a copy, USN Credits for the Destruction of Enemy Aircraft in Air-to-Air Combat - World War II, and give it some study before jumping. Of course, it is not easy to get. There is a companion volume on USMC credits around which I'd like to get my hands as well as volumes on the USAAF in the ETO, MTO, CBI, and POA. I've the USAAF CBI and POA, but not ETO or MTO - since I've little interest in that part of the world, 'tis no great loss.

I'd also point out that unless you have carefully gone through the Barber report and put it all in nice new spread sheets with nice new formulas you may find yourself zeroing in on some typos . . . that is, the numbers in calculation fields are not always typed in correctly, certainly not often, not even in every table, but enough for someone with a background in operational statistics to spot just eye-balling it. Another quaint oddity, with which I happen to agree, in the Barber report is that it follows the convention of the practitioners of period in tracking FM scores separate from F4F scores - now if you want to see an interesting credit to loss ratio, look at the Eastern FM-2.

So, using the 5163 figure or even 5165 as the total for F6F credits is pretty close, but not entirely accurate, the number is higher. On the other hand, I doubt we'll ever have a 100% accurate accounting.

 

[R Leonard]

[

R Leonard,

what is the source of your numbers? Is the data in a form where you can see the pilot, the type of the victor, the type of the victim, etc?

See Posts 15 and 22. Other data comes probably from the same official reports you've seen. Another good source is the research of Ray Wagner.

The trick is compiling the information correctly and in a usable format so that you can sift through the data. That's what computers are for and where training in operational analysis and statistics comes in handy. For cross checking, a library of some 175 specifically related WWII naval aviation titles does not hurt - out of some 600 naval and military volumes; not to mention a couple-three of file cabinets full of reports, periodicals, and individual articles (and an accurate catalog of all so I can find things and, more importantly, avoid the purchase of duplicates); and, literally, about 2000 digital pdfs gleaned from the net on WWII aviation, easily half of which are directly USN related.

In all this, I am a collector of names, names of WWII period US naval aviators, USN, USMC, USCG and even a few who when over to the AAF (though that's where I stop tracking those individuals). Don't have all that many individuals, but it keeps me amused. Estimate about 70,000 active duty naval aviators December 1941 to September 1945. My list has over 33,300 entries for information on about 19,500 individuals, from LCDR Philip V Aaronson 2d CO of VPB-145 in FAW-11 out of NAF San Julian Cuba on 1 Mar 45 to ENS Herman L Zwick who on 4 Sep 44 was assigned to VPB-128 in FAW-5 out of NAS Norfolk.

 

[gjs238]

now if you want to see an interesting credit to loss ratio, look at the Eastern FM-2.

Can you elaborate? You've aroused my curiosity.

 

[R Leonard]

gjs238
Can you elaborate? You've aroused my curiosity.

According to the Naval Aviation Combat Statistics - World War II OpNav report, for the entire war, the FM-2 was credited with destroying 422 aircraft in air-to-air combat in the Pacific for the loss of 13, a ratio 32.46 to 1. This includes a 235-12 (a 19.58 to 1 ratio) record in 1944, and an incredible 187-1 record in 1945. Oh, and before anyone jumps and says the OpNav report does not say FM-2, it only says FM, I'd suggest that with some diligent researching one might be able to determine that there were no FM-1 credits, QED, FM credits = FM-2 credits. As with the F6F accounting, the OpNav FM-2 basic totals is only for, generically, "fighters" and "bombers."

Comparing this result with Frank Olynyk's USN credits research one finds that he turns up 428 FM-2 credits, a 1.4% difference. Olynyk further identifies 39 probables and 32 damaged which do not appear in the OpNav report.

So, one could pick their choose, 422:13 (32.5:1) or 428:13 (32.9:1).

Regards

 

[drgondog]

Everybody has ignored the purpose of this thread -namel:

"This popped into my head over my lunch hour today. Which US aircraft piloted by American pillots is credited with shooting down the most enemy aircraft? I'm not talking which model aircraft, but which specific airframe/serial number is credited with the most kills during the Second World War.

Everybody has been deep diving Airframe TYPE.. look to Boyington, McCambell, Foss, Bong and McGuire for usual suspects as the airframe changes did not occur so fast in pacific as in Europe, Then I might take a quick look at Hofer and Gentile - as most of teir scores were in the same P-51B airframe/serial number from March through May/June 1944.

 

[MikeGazdik]

Yes, thats they way I read it as well. I have been trying to dig on this since I posted before. I'm not sure of where exactly to go to find more info yet. I have hit some other "ACE" websites, and refered to a few of my books. It looks like Bud Anderson has between 9 to 12 claims in one of his P-51B Old Crow Mustangs, then that plane was turned over to another pilot. I'm researching now names like McQuire, Kepford, Lynch, Preddy, Foss.

According to his bio, Dominic "Don" Gentile, 4th FG, downed 15 between March 3rd and April 8th 1944. These were in his famous "Sangri La" P-51B. Which he crashed at his airfield showing off. (stuff of which movies are made ! )

 

[MikeGazdik]

In researching this, I found the above conversation on "history.net" I cut a paste the information: ANDY SNELL says:
9/21/2008 at 11:33 pm
You left out,in my opinion, a very important part ot the George Preddy story. CRIPES A MIGHTY #3, Georges Last P-51-D @ the 487fs, survived WW11 was assigned to Capt. Stewart when george went state side. there were 4 or 5 others pilots that flew C.A.M.#3 in-cluding the CO., Col. John Meyer, who got 4 kills in it.
CRIPES A MIGHTY #3 went on to make history as having highest,confirmed, no. of KILLS,(27.5). Higher, than any aircraft in WW-11. 18.5 in air combat 9 ground kills. CRIPES A MIGHTY #3 did make History for George. Art Snyder was the crew chief. Andy Snell/487fs

 

[MikeGazdik]

I found this on "history.net" ANDY SNELL says:
9/21/2008 at 11:33 pm
You left out,in my opinion, a very important part ot the George Preddy story. CRIPES A MIGHTY #3, Georges Last P-51-D @ the 487fs, survived WW11 was assigned to Capt. Stewart when george went state side. there were 4 or 5 others pilots that flew C.A.M.#3 in-cluding the CO., Col. John Meyer, who got 4 kills in it.
CRIPES A MIGHTY #3 went on to make history as having highest,confirmed, no. of KILLS,(27.5). Higher, than any aircraft in WW-11. 18.5 in air combat 9 ground kills. CRIPES A MIGHTY #3 did make History for George. Art Snyder was the crew chief. Andy Snell/487fs

And this: When Preddy completed his tour and rotated back to the States for a well earned rest 44-13321 continued in service with the 352nd FG under the guise of other names; "The Margarets" of Capt. H.M. Stewart and "Sexshunate" (pronounced "Section 8") of Capt. Marion J. Nutter. Lt. Ray Littge and Lt. Warren Padden also flew the aircraft. 44-13321's last mission was on 16th April 1945 when it was lost with Lt. Padden (killed in action).

A total of 18.5 aerial and 9 ground victories were tallied in 44-13321, including 4 by Col. John Meyer on 10 September 1944. More aerial victories were scored by pilots flying this aircraft than in any other Mustang serving in WWII.

I will dig into to this to see if it is accurate.

 

[GregP]

An FM-2 is simply a Wildcat with 150 more horespower. Sorry, but is gets lumped into the F4F kills, as it should.

Nobody tries to separate Fw 190A kills from Fw 190F kills, and they shouldn't for Wildcat kills, either. A Wildcat is a Wildcat. All fighter get improvements, if they see mllitary service.

The Hellcat reigns supreme in US air-to-air kills unless you are a statistician who is attempting to slice and dice the kills. If you are, then you are not slicing all the OTHER fighter variants for reference and, thus, your compariosn is not factual except for the FM-2. If you're gonna' slice and dice Wildcat kills, then do it for ALL fighter variants or quit posting one-sided claims.

Sorry guys, but a Spitfire I kill is counted with ehe Spitfire XIV kills. Let it ride for Wildcats which, in the grand scheme, are also-rans in the kills category.

They held the line until the Hellcats and Corsairs could join, and then were obsolescent, FM-2 or F4F notwithstanding. They deserve the credit, but not undue credit.

FM-2 equals a Wildcat airframe in my book, and should unless you are willing to slice and dice all types, including Allied and Axis, not just Wildcats.

Jsu my opinion ... I realize yours may vary ... but, if so, please justify whhy you break out the FM-2 and not the F4U-4, the Spitfire XIV, etc.

 

[MikeGazdik]

We have two parallel discussions: aircraft type, and particular aircraft. As far as type, everything I have read in the past shows the F6F as having the most kills overall.

 

[Milosh]

Because the OP was asking which airframe ie the same serial number, had the most kills.

 

[buffnut453]

CRIPES A MIGHTY #3 went on to make history as having highest,confirmed, no. of KILLS,(27.5). Higher, than any aircraft in WW-11. 18.5 in air combat 9 ground kills.

Sorry but that's not even close. Brewster Buffalo BW-393 of the Finnish Air Force can claim 39 air-to-air victories. CAM might have been the highest-scoring US or even Allied airframe but it wasn't "Higher than any aircraft in WWII".

 

[claidemore]

The question was which "US" airframe, flown by US pilots, for which CAM#3 might well be the one, the incorrect wording of the quote notwithstanding.
AFAIK BW-393 would be the clear winner for WWII from any nation.

 

[buffnut453]

I wasn't trying to be an @*sehole - I agree, CAM may be the top-scoring US airframe piloted by US personnel.

 

[R Leonard]

Jsu my opinion ... I realize yours may vary ... but, if so, please justify whhy you break out the FM-2 and not the F4U-4, the Spitfire XIV, etc.

Because the USN, in the report which you like to cite as definitive, counts the FM-2 separately. Read it again. Practitioners of the times opinion trumps non-practitioners opinion from 60+ years away. It was considered a different airframe from the F4F-3 and -4. All of the "Wildcat" drivers I've known, and that's probably more than anyone on this forum, where the conversations steered in this direction, always referred to F4Fs and FM-2s separately. We've beat this to death in other places. If you have a problem with the USN accounting in Naval Aviation Combat Statistics - World War II, I'd suggest, as I have to you before, that you take it up with the USN - I am sure they'll be happy to change the record just for you. I have no further comment, nor will I, on the subject; we shall have to disagree. Also, despite my personal preference for naval types, the P-51, in all its versions, scored more air-to-air victories than the F6F in all it's versions.

 

[drgondog]

44-13321 Cripes A Mighty 3 had 14 air scores, JC Meyer got 2 in 44-13597 which is the Only P-51D-5 that he scored in.

Henry Stewart may have gotten 44-13321 after Preddy went home in September but his first score (air) was November 27 - can't verify the a/c number

Gentile got 15.5 in P-51B's but in three separate birds.

For US ETO/MTO Preddy's 44-13321 seems to be high w/14 verified, I question Stewart but he did get 4 in the air after 11/27/44.

Tommy McGuire got 18 in P-38L-1 (no serial number stated) - his last 18 before KIA with one more unverified

McCambell had 15.5 in an F6F-5 (serial unspecified)

Boyington, Vraciu, Kepner, Bong, etc all had less than Preddy's CAM3..

 

[GregP]

I suppose we'll just have to disagree, Leonard. To me, a Wildcat is a Wildcat, and it seems to be that way too when we have a Wildcat day at the Planes of Fame, when I speak with former Wildcat pilots. So, I suppose we have different experiences when taking with the pilots, and that's OK. Many of them disagree with one another.

It's OK to disagree, and it doesn't have to get personal. Let's just say we think about it differently.

You won't convince me and can see I won't convince you, so your numbers are slighty different when it comes to the FM-2, and that's OK.The Wildcat is nowhere ner the top anyway. Other people can't seem to agree on such mundane things as the number of aircraft buiilt, much less kills, claims, probables, etc.

Calculate your FM-2 kills any way you want and do it in good health. Cheers. Really.

 

[drgondog]

We have two parallel discussions: aircraft type, and particular aircraft. As far as type, everything I have read in the past shows the F6F as having the most kills overall.

Mike - I have nearly finished the final linkage of my own - namely USAF 85 compilation (Frank's base when he started his doctoral studies).

Verified to USAF 85, matched pilot to unit to equipment flown by date (i.e. 4th FG transitioned to Mustangs in February 1944 and all WWII victory credits after that were P-51), the Mustang had 5944 plus 313 RAF/Commonwealth - I have the F6F with 5229 but checking for Brit Navy totals.

 

[Timppa]

44-13321 Cripes A Mighty 3 had 14 air scores, JC Meyer got 2 in 44-13597 which is the Only P-51D-5 that he scored in.,

How about Gabreski's D-11 (42-75510) ?