Which was the more successful single engine dive bomber, the SBD, the JU-87 or D3A?

[SaparotRob]

These 3 planes seem to be the stand-out or at least the most famous dive bombers of the Second World War. These are the planes most likely to be known by non aviation experts (like me). I'm not too familiar with the ETO. I left out dive bombers of other nations. This is not a slight but no other db's get the same amount of press...but I am fond of the SBD.

 

[Greyman]

Well there might be only one man that flew all three and Eric Brown ranked them:

1. Ju 87
2. Val
3. Dauntless

 

[fastmongrel]

Someone on this forum wrote that the Ju87 spent most of its wartime career not dive-bombing at all but instead attacked at treetop level or in a shallow dive.

 

[SaparotRob]

Well there might be only one man that flew all three and Eric Brown ranked them:

1. Ju 87
2. Val
3. Dauntless

I got to find a book or two on this man. Just found out the Library reopened.

 

[SaparotRob]

Someone on this forum wrote that the Ju87 spent most of its wartime career not dive-bombing at all but instead attacked at treetop level or in a shallow dive.

That is not what I expected.

 

[fubar57]

 

[macguba]

@ SaparotRob Eric 'Winkle' Brown wrote a number of books himself, including an autobiography. Also many magazine articles.

Also, if you're interested in dive bombers, read up on the Blackburn Skua. You can argue the technical merits of this or that, but there is no doubt it has the best name of any dive bomber. However, you can only fully appreciate this if you have met an actual skua. They are properly scary birds.

 

[DarrenW]

These 3 planes seem to be the stand-out or at least the most famous dive bombers of the Second World War. These are the planes most likely to be known by non aviation experts (like me). I'm not too familiar with the ETO. I left out dive bombers of other nations. This is not a slight but no other db's get the same amount of press...but I am fond of the SBD.

Great question. I've read that the D3A sank more allied warships than any other axis aircraft, and the SBD returned the 'favor' to the Japanese. You can calculate success many different ways however, such as total tonnage or number of ships sunk (or for that matter, the type of ship), which obviously makes it more complicated to compare the actual combat effectiveness of the aircraft in question. The publication Naval Aviation Combat Statistics - World War II provides the number and total tonnage of various Japanese warships/merchant ships which were sunk either in whole or in part by US Naval aviation during the war, but unfortunately does not specify the type of aircraft involved in their ultimate destruction. According to the report there were 492 Japanese vessels sunk solely by both land and carrier-based aircraft, which equated to 2,174,501 tons of shipping lost. A further 71 ships or 360,763 tons were sunk in combination with "other forces" (such as surface ships, submarines, and other allied aircraft).

The Dauntless' biggest claim to fame came during the Battle of Midway, when four Japanese carriers (Shoho, Soryu, Kaga, Akagi, and Hiryu) were sent to the bottom by its bombs.

Discounting the Pearl Harbor attack (where B5N torpedo bombers were used as well), the Aichi D3A is known to have singularly sunk the following allied warships:

• USS Peary, American destroyer, 19 February 1942 – Australia
• USS Pope, American destroyer, 1 March 1942 – Java Sea
• USS Edsall, American destroyer, 1 March 1942- Indian Ocean
• USS Pecos, American oiler, 1 March 1942- Indian Ocean
• HMS Cornwall, British heavy cruiser, 5 April 1942 – Indian Ocean
• HMS Dorsetshire, British heavy cruiser, 5 April 1942 – Indian Ocean
• HMS Hector, British armed merchant cruiser, 5 April 1942 – Indian Ocean
• HMS Tenedos, British destroyer, 5 April 1942 – Indian Ocean
• HMS Hermes, British aircraft carrier, 9 April 1942 – Indian Ocean
• HMAS Vampire, Australian destroyer, 9 April 1942 – Indian Ocean
• USS Sims, American destroyer, 7 May 1942 – Pacific Ocean
• USS De Haven, American destroyer, 1 February 1943 – Pacific Ocean (Ironbottom Sound)
• USS Aaron Ward, American destroyer, 7 April 1943 – Pacific Ocean (Ironbottom Sound)
• USS Brownson, American destroyer, 26 December 1943 – Pacific Ocean
• USS Abner Read, American destroyer, sunk by kamikaze 1 November 1944 – Pacific Ocean
• USS William D. Porter, American destroyer, sunk by kamikaze 10 June 1945 – Japan (Okinawa)

(Source: Aichi D3A - Wikipedia )

Calculating the combined tonnage of these ships for statistical purposes shouldn't be too difficult a task I believe.

Besides the destruction of shipping, the SBDs were also heavily involved in softening up enemy land installations and providing close air-support during the invasion of key Japanese strongholds throughout the pacific, something which the D3A had a more limited role in, being that the Japanese were primarily fighting in the defensive role by this stage of the war. The Dauntless' successes in these endeavors could certainly give it a statistical edge over it's Japanese counterpart if these numbers could be quantified in a usable way. Both aircraft have a reputation for nimbleness and because of this were somewhat effective in defensive combat with enemy fighters.

On the other hand, the JU 87 operated in many target-rich environments and destroyed a sizable number of ships, tanks, artillery, infantry personnel, ect., in its own right. If we use those metrics it could very well be considered just as or even more successful than the other two aircraft, when attempting to determine the overall effectiveness of destroying the war-fighting capability of the enemy in question. But it had a tough time defending itself against enemy fighters and losses were extremely heavy at times.

As you can see there's definitely lots to debate here....

 

[GrauGeist]

Be careful not to confuse the accomplishments of the Ju87G with the earlier types, as the Ju87G was purely ground attack, being equipped with a BK3.7 canon under each wing.

In the case of the SBD, it is the only dive-bomber that has a plus kill ratio in aerial engagements.
In the Pacific, the Dauntless sank 6 IJA Carriers (Shoho, Akagi, Hiryu, Kaga, Soryu and Ryujo), 14 Cruisers, 6 Destroyers, 15 Cargo/Transports and scores of lesser ships for a total of over 300,000 tons.
It was also one of the few dive-bombers to serve in other theaters: sinking the Vichy-French battleship Jean-Bart as well as sinking several German freighters and troop transports.

 

[Shortround6]

As a dive bomber the JU 87 was probably the best.

I believe it was the only one to use a automatic or semi-automatic pull out system. This meant the plane would automatically pull out of the dive after the bomb released even if the pilot blacked out. The JU 87 had good dive brakes, it had good controllability in the dive and was stable.

Once you start throwing in other missions things get murky.
SBD stands for Scout Bomber Douglas, and it is not a BSD.
The SBD and Val were used (not just used but planned) to accomplish the mission of scout/recconasance. They had much better range than the JU-87 (in general) The Ju 87 was never really planned to do the recon mission, although it may have been used for it at times.

SO how are we measuring success?

Ships sunk?
etzatz fighter missions, well under 1% of all missions flown by either the SBD or the Val.
Enemy ships/fleets discovered?
Land battles influenced or bridges destroyed?

 

[SaparotRob]

Great question. I've read that the D3A sank more allied warships than any other axis aircraft, and the SBD returned the 'favor' to the Japanese. You can calculate success many different ways however, such as total tonnage or number of ships sunk (or for that matter, the type of ship), which obviously makes it more complicated to compare the actual combat effectiveness of the aircraft in question. The publication Naval Aviation Combat Statistics - World War II provides the number and total tonnage of various Japanese warships/merchant ships which were sunk either in whole or in part by US Naval aviation during the war, but unfortunately does not specify the type of aircraft involved in their ultimate destruction. According to the report there were 492 Japanese vessels sunk solely by both land and carrier-based aircraft, which equated to 2,174,501 tons of shipping lost. A further 71 ships or 360,763 tons were sunk in combination with "other forces" (such as surface ships, submarines, and other allied aircraft).

The Dauntless' biggest claim to fame came during the Battle of Midway, when four Japanese carriers (Shoho, Soryu, Kaga, Akagi, and Hiryu) were sent to the bottom by its bombs.

Discounting the Pearl Harbor attack (where B5N torpedo bombers were used as well), the Aichi D3A is known to have singularly sunk the following allied warships:

• USS Peary, American destroyer, 19 February 1942 – Australia
• USS Pope, American destroyer, 1 March 1942 – Java Sea
• USS Edsall, American destroyer, 1 March 1942- Indian Ocean
• USS Pecos, American oiler, 1 March 1942- Indian Ocean
• HMS Cornwall, British heavy cruiser, 5 April 1942 – Indian Ocean
• HMS Dorsetshire, British heavy cruiser, 5 April 1942 – Indian Ocean
• HMS Hector, British armed merchant cruiser, 5 April 1942 – Indian Ocean
• HMS Tenedos, British destroyer, 5 April 1942 – Indian Ocean
• HMS Hermes, British aircraft carrier, 9 April 1942 – Indian Ocean
• HMAS Vampire, Australian destroyer, 9 April 1942 – Indian Ocean
• USS Sims, American destroyer, 7 May 1942 – Pacific Ocean
• USS De Haven, American destroyer, 1 February 1943 – Pacific Ocean (Ironbottom Sound)
• USS Aaron Ward, American destroyer, 7 April 1943 – Pacific Ocean (Ironbottom Sound)
• USS Brownson, American destroyer, 26 December 1943 – Pacific Ocean
• USS Abner Read, American destroyer, sunk by kamikaze 1 November 1944 – Pacific Ocean
• USS William D. Porter, American destroyer, sunk by kamikaze 10 June 1945 – Japan (Okinawa)

(Source: Aichi D3A - Wikipedia )

Calculating the combined tonnage of these ships for statistical purposes shouldn't be too difficult a task I believe.

Besides the destruction of shipping, the SBDs were also heavily involved in softening up enemy land installations and providing close air-support during the invasion of key Japanese strongholds throughout the pacific, something which the D3A had a more limited role in, being that the Japanese were primarily fighting in the defensive role by this stage of the war. The Dauntless' successes in these endeavors could certainly give it a statistical edge over it's Japanese counterpart if these numbers could be quantified in a usable way. Both aircraft have a reputation for nimbleness and because of this were somewhat effective in defensive combat with enemy fighters.

On the other hand, the JU 87 operated in many target-rich environments and destroyed a sizable number of ships, tanks, artillery, infantry personnel, ect., in its own right. If we use those metrics it could very well be considered just as or even more successful than the other two aircraft, when attempting to determine the overall effectiveness of destroying the war-fighting capability of the enemy in question. But it had a tough time defending itself against enemy fighters and losses were extremely heavy at times.

As you can see there's definitely lots to debate here....

Which is why I chose it!

 

[pbehn]

Whether a dive bomber was successful depended on the opposition. When the Germans lost control of the air they depended on anti aircraft fire, so using a dive bomber against German land positions was a bad idea.

 

[GregP]

It's a bad idea to dive-bomb an armored warship in general, especially if you are the only airplane in the sky at the time, but many were successfully attacked by dive bombers.

 

[SaparotRob]

In a way the Yokosuka D4Y might have been the most efficient ship killer. A few of them launched successful SINGLE plane attacks against US aircraft carriers. U.S.S. Bunker Hill, U.S.S. Franklin (and I think U.S.S. Indianapolis) as well as a few of CVL's and CVE's. How they slipped through the CAP and search radar nets with inexperienced pilots is amazing.

 

[GrauGeist]

The D4Y may have damaged U.S. warships both in conventional attacks and as Kamikaze, but they didn't sink any.

The D3A, on the otherhand, contributed to the sinking of the Lexington, Yorktown and Hornet plus the long list of ships Darren posted earlier.

The Indianapolis was sunk by two torpedoes from Commander Hashimoto's submarine, I-58.

 

[SaparotRob]

The D4Y may have damaged U.S. warships both in conventional attacks and as Kamikaze, but they didn't sink any.

The D3A, on the otherhand, contributed to the sinking of the Lexington, Yorktown and Hornet plus the long list of ships Darren posted earlier.

The Indianapolis was sunk by two torpedoes from Commander Hashimoto's submarine, I-58.

The U.S.S. Indianapolis was indeed sunk by the the I-58. It was, however, struck by a kamikaze off Okinawa while Admiral Spruance was aboard. Admiral Spruance actually manned a fire hose himself, according to James D. Hornfischer's book, The Fleet At Flood Tide.
Having found the page (397) it was an Oscar that hit the cruiser.

 

[SaparotRob]

Although no CV was sunk by Kamikaze attacks, removing both U.S.S. Bunker Hill and U.S.S. Franklin and their air groups from battle with one plane apiece sure seems effective to me.

 

[GrauGeist]

But the SBD not only sunk 6 IJA carriers (breaking the back of the IJA), they damaged the Shokaku, which would have been with Kido Butai at Midway, so they single-handedly altered the course of the war on several levels.

In regards to the Indianapolis, she was hit by a KI-43 fighter in a Kamikaze attack. Not a D4A.

She was refitted and on her later journey, after delivering atomic ordnance to Tinian, was torpedoed and sunk by I-58.

 

[SaparotRob]

Being an SBD booster, I certainly agree with you on that. I believe the SBD was the best of these three.
I think all of us here are familiar with the the tragic loss of U.S.S. Indianapolis. I didn't know that she was struck by a Kamikaze before her sinking until I read Mr. Hornfischer's book. I was amazed to learn that Admiral Spruance actually dove right into damage control personally.
I realized and posted my error that it was a Ki-43 and not a D4Y earlier.

 

[GrauGeist]

Indianapolis (and the rest of the fleet) was within range of aircraft from the home islands during the Okinawa campaign, which is where the Army KI-43 came from.