Which WWIIcountry is in the frontier of the aerospace?

[plan_D]

It lacked strategic resources, that makes a lot of difference in industrialisation. The world wasn't as close net as it is these days, Japan isn't self-sufficient. It relies heavily on raw materials from other nations. Those nations it relies on today, weren't it's allies back then.

The U.S halted many important exports to Japan after it's invasion of China, for example.

And I may be wrong on this but I thought Japan was the strongest economy on the planet, not the U.S.

 

[Chiron]

"And I may be wrong on this but I thought Japan was the strongest economy on the planet, not the U.S."

During the Cold War, most of Economist experts forcasted that Japan would overtake US by early '90s. But, like the fall of Soviet Union, the Japanese economy was bubble burst in early 1990s.

Japanese ecnomoy was so powerful then that US government afraid that their corporations might absorbed by Japanese, such as Sony bought CBS etc. And of course, the famous battle and competition of supercomputer and semiconductor between Japanese and US researchers in 80s. I think it was like every two years, Japanese introduced new supercomputer. Japanese miracle impacted not only on American industries, but also on American perception of future; many sci-fic movies contained scenes of futuristic style of citeis that based on Tokyo, Blade Runner, or domination of Japanese corporations in Alien 3.

Of course, now, Detroit is losing battle against mighty Japanese auto makers, Toyota, Honda. I recalled that when asked which company BMW is most respecting in engineering, BMW replies: Honda (just looked at their engines technology and their unsurpassed robotic advancements).

But, I still dont understand why Japanese engineering was so poor prior and during WWII? I heard somone compare Japan with Italy in R&D, which is kind of exaggerating. Afterall Japan built the most powerful fleet in the beginning of war, whereas Italy had none of that.

Natural resources maybe a key, but Japan occupied Manchuria and other rich provinces of China in the beginning of war.

In Political Science, both Germany and Japan are often comparing with each other as they have very similar path of economic and political developments prior and post WWII.

Germany was also a late comer in terms of industrialization and political modernization. Yet, with similar size of population in Japan, Germany had much advanced and scientific research as well as in industrial output.

 

[Anonymous]

Why Japan failed to industrialize in pre-WWII in comparison with Germany?

Natural resources may played a role, but I dont think its a critical one. We know that Japan is the second most powerful economy after US now. And it is also one of the most technological advanced nation on earth; has more R&D than Germany and any European nation.

The problem that I dont understand is that why Japan was weak in terms of industrial capacity, but became such powerful economy in post-WWII era. I recalled my Political Science class last year that during 1980s and early 1990s, Japanese economy was so powerful that 10 of the world largest banks were Japaense and the real estate of Imperal Palace was equivalent to the real estate of whole California.

But, why Japan wasnt in such state prior and during WWII? It had already industrialized for over fifty years now afer Meiji revolution in late 19th century.

Actually, it was the "Meiji Restoration", much more a coup than a "revolution". It resulted in the military achieving political dominance using the Emperor as (partly willing) puppet.

The issue comes down to one simple difference between pre-WWII Gemany vs. Japan - Education. Most of the Japanese people were uneducated by western standards. This was especially true under the Tokagawa Shoganate (which was highly isolationist), but was relaxed a little after the Meiji Restoration (1889 IIRC) and a little more after the Military came to fuller dominance around 1916, But still the Japanese were mostly farmers and general laborers. What education most Japanese did recieve had to do mostly with "punctuality", "obedience", and "repetition". Thinking processes were not a part of general education, and even reading skills were taught at only the most rudimentrary levels. Only the social elite were given any form of higher education, everyone else was expected to perform rote tasks either in the field, the factory, or the office. So the pool of talant to enact industrialization was somewhat limited.

Also, capital for industrialization was somewhat limited, since most of it had to be initially purchased from Western powers, and then duplicated. This often meant Japan's industrial technology was a full generation behind the Western powers as they were spending a decade to copy what was not even usually state-of-the art technology in the first place.

Finally, you have to consider the starting point. Japan had almost no "modern" industry at the time of the Meiji Restoration. Eurpean nations were already heavily industrialized for over 100 years, and the USA had become so during the Civil war. Japanese heavy industry growth was probably about as fast as their educated worker base and financial resources could accomodate in the period from 1900-1940. Still, it was far less than that of the USA, but probably approached that of most European nations by WWII.

Finally, Germany was bigger than Japan. The German population in 1939 was about 80.5 millon, where Japan had a population of only about 50 million. And remember, while Germany was not huge, Japan is only about the size of California.

As for Japan's rise after WWII - that can be summed up in three words "The Marshall Plan". Japan did not have to industrialize itself, we did it for them! And we even went so far as to build the best we could for them - for example both Germany and Japan got O2 injection smelters after WWII. This resulted in the "quality" of German and Japanese steel in car bodys being "superior" to that of US cars in the 60's and especially the 70's and 80's. About 65% of US smelters were of the old coal and coke type, and thus higher quality steel was more expensive in the USA than in the former Axis nations. As a result, American made cars were more subject to rust than German/Japanese cars.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

"I will agree with RG that they had excellent engineering but lacked the recources. "

By the way, Germany was also lack of natural resources, but where they got their oil and mental from? I meant that Japan and Germany are overpopulated and almost no sustainable resources. But, why Germany was able to sustain much longer than Japanese did? and why Germany was much dangerous than Japan in WWII?

You have to take into account that Germany took over countries that had natural recourses. Japan mostly took over Islands that did not have much.

 

[Anonymous]

Chiron,

Japan was not "similar" in population to German, it had only 3/5ths as many people. That is a huge difference.

Also, the number of Japanese with any kind of real education in Japan was tiny by comparison to Germany. Only about the top 5% of Japanese received more than what today would be considered a 5th grade education. A smaller number of well educated people means a smaller capacity for R&D.

And finally, Japan did not have the "best" navy in the world at the start of WWII. They managed to sink most of the US Battleships at Perl Harbor but if you look at the match-up before PH Japan was still inferior.

According to Paul Kennedy's "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers", in 1937 the war-making potential of the 7 major players in WWII was:



As you can see Japan's economy was only about a quarter as powerful as Germany's. And in 1937, the German economy was hot but the Japanese economy was super-heated from their war with China, so the German advantage is a little understated.

Japan was really a little power that got a big head and acted foolishly. This seems to be a common malady when a peoples decide they are innately superior to other peoples.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[delcyros]

Keep also in mind that the area of both countries differs greatly.
While Japan has a nominal bigger size it incorporates 85% of its area as mountains. Only 15% of it´s area are suited for food production and habitable. Most cities are located there also, resulting in a further decrease of it´s area. Germany on the other hand has 82% fertile, habitable area. And lots of communication ways: railways, highways (Autobahnen, great ), river ways...
The japanese fleet was great in 1942 but if you factor 1940 or even early 1941 you could come to the solution that italy was not that far away to have a comparable one. (exclude the carriers, since their worth was widely recognized from 1941 on) In fact Italy did had the excellent Vittorio Veneto class battleships. The fleet of Italy was potentially able to rule the mediterranean, but the RN prevented that wisely.

 

[plan_D]

It sure did, with a handful of Swordfish.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I would actually go to say that the Italians had possibly one of the best navies for a while, until the RN took care of them. The advantage the Japanese had was the Battleship situation after Pearl, and that did not last very long anyhow. The Japanese were not able to replace there losses like the US was able to do. For every US carrier lost there were 10 more being finished. The Axis powers as a matter of fact did not have the capabiltiy of replacing there naval losses anywhere near that of the allies.

 

[plan_D]

Well, as I've always said, how could they match the economy of the U.S.A, British Empire and Soviet Union combined?

How could they even hope, to match it. Well, actually, Germany didn't. It was recognised from the start, written down in Achtung! Panzer! by Guderian (1937), that Germany could not sustain a long drawn out war because of a lack of resources.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

which is why they used blitzkreig tactics.....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Which worked out of shock at first but soon slowed and died down.

 

[plan_D]

It didn't really rely on shock on the grandscale. The reason it slowed was purely due to massive tactical errors on the part of Hitler. He forgot what blitzkrieg was all about.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That he did also.

 

[mosquitoman]

I would actually go to say that the Italians had possibly one of the best navies for a while, until the RN took care of them. The advantage the Japanese had was the Battleship situation after Pearl, and that did not last very long anyhow. The Japanese were not able to replace there losses like the US was able to do. For every US carrier lost there were 10 more being finished. The Axis powers as a matter of fact did not have the capabiltiy of replacing there naval losses anywhere near that of the allies.

The Italian Navy stayed in port most of the time, that's why it was defeated because the RN had the initaitive in going after the Italian Navy

 

[Chiron]

"Chiron,

Japan was not "similar" in population to German, it had only 3/5ths as many people. That is a huge difference.

Also, the number of Japanese with any kind of real education in Japan was tiny by comparison to Germany. Only about the top 5% of Japanese received more than what today would be considered a 5th grade education. A smaller number of well educated people means a smaller capacity for R&D."

Thanks, Lunatic, especially your very helpful chart. I was surprised that even the combination of Germany, Japan, and Soviet can not rival the industrial capacity of US's.

Ya, I agree totally, with such small portion of educated Japanese at that time, it became much difficult for Japan to develop and to advance their weaponary. But, despite of the shortage of enginners, Japan still developed some of best fighters of that time.

By the way, regarding your chart, does that corresponding to a state's investment in R&D? In other words, does it mean that US has much advanced science and technology than Germany because it had much powerful war making ability. Moreover, does Soviet had equal scientific research to that of Germany since Soviet was ranked equally to Germany according to that chart.

And also, I heard that Japan was well awared of potential of developing nuclear bomb, and Japan had actually experimented the nuclear program. (correct me if i am wrong). So, Japnese scientists were not that far behind of their European coutnerpart.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Lunatic, especially your very helpful chart. I was surprised that even the combination of Germany, Japan, and Soviet can not rival the industrial capacity of US's.

Ya, I agree totally, with such small portion of educated Japanese at that time, it became much difficult for Japan to develop and to advance their weaponary. But, despite of the shortage of enginners, Japan still developed some of best fighters of that time.

By the way, regarding your chart, does that corresponding to a state's investment in R&D? In other words, does it mean that US has much advanced science and technology than Germany because it had much powerful war making ability. Moreover, does Soviet had equal scientific research to that of Germany since Soviet was ranked equally to Germany according to that chart.

Click on the chart, it will take you to the page it comes from

The figures represent the gross productivity of each nation in 1937. Therefore, they show Germany and Japan as being stronger than they really were, since their economies were already wound up producing war goods. They didn't have a lot more room for futher expansion, where the British, and especially the US economies were cold and thus had a lot of room for expansion. By the end of 1942 the picture was much different, the USA made up about 2/3rds of all Allied production and was still growing.

And also, I heard that Japan was well awared of potential of developing nuclear bomb, and Japan had actually experimented the nuclear program. (correct me if i am wrong). So, Japnese scientists were not that far behind of their European coutnerpart.

I really don't think they had any kind of nuclear program. The Germans were unable to create a stable atomic pile until the very last days of WWII and the Japanese didn't even try. At best, the Japanese were aware of the possiblity of a dirty bomb using material provided by the Germans near the end of the war (which never got their aboard the the uboat U-235 - is that number a coincidence?).

=S=

Lunatic

 

[delcyros]

Cool thing with U-234.

It was originally a submarine long range mine layer, one of the largest fielded by the Kriegsmarine. After capitulation it was handed over to US controll while enroute to Japan. It´s cargo consisted of: One complete Me-262 jet fighter with all ground equippment, 1 ton of diplomatic material, 8 tons of construction charts for rocketry, jettechnology, submarine-technology, fuzes, guidiances and electronics (4mm radar wave technology!), mostly on microfilm, further material for guidiances and fuzes, 10 metal barrels containing 560 Kg of Uranium (there has been a discussion arisen if these material was Uraniumoxyd (which is most probable), metallic Uranium or even enriched ones (which seems to be unprobable). It was one of four boats to transfer technology from Germany to Japan, another boat (containing a Me-163) was sunken enroute.

 

[Glider]

I find the cargo interesting in particular the Me262 as the Japenese had a jet fighter in test and to me it looks like a 262 but with a smaller rudder. It was called the Kikka or Navy 10-Shi type B local fighter (what a name). Only one was flying at the end of the war and the performance was I believe very low as the engines only produced 1,050 lb thrust.
One interesting point. Lt Cdr Susumu Takaoka the Test Pilot reported that part of his preparation for the test flight was a review of the test pilot report on the American Bell P59!! Maybe the Jap secret service was better than I thought. Its a strange claim to make as he would presumably have had access to flight reports on the 262

 

[Anonymous]

Cool thing with U-234.

It was originally a submarine long range mine layer, one of the largest fielded by the Kriegsmarine. After capitulation it was handed over to US controll while enroute to Japan. It´s cargo consisted of: One complete Me-262 jet fighter with all ground equippment, 1 ton of diplomatic material, 8 tons of construction charts for rocketry, jettechnology, submarine-technology, fuzes, guidiances and electronics (4mm radar wave technology!), mostly on microfilm, further material for guidiances and fuzes, 10 metal barrels containing 560 Kg of Uranium (there has been a discussion arisen if these material was Uraniumoxyd (which is most probable), metallic Uranium or even enriched ones (which seems to be unprobable). It was one of four boats to transfer technology from Germany to Japan, another boat (containing a Me-163) was sunken enroute.

The drums contained Uranium-Oxide powder. This has been confirmed by multiple sources. It was not enriched, though it was of very high grade.

 

[delcyros]

....That´s what I believe in, too.
However, the Navy archives for the cargo is not accesabble and therefore (as far as I know) not verfiable. The only source I know so far is C.P. Hydricks study "Critical Mass" from 1998, who analyzed material from the Navy archives. He involved some suspicious points in his second part, which descredited his work in the first part (just my opinion).
Can you source outher sorces, RG? Would be fine