Who was more ruthless?

[Vassili Zaitzev]

With all this talk about corrupt leaders, I just hope history won't repeat itself.

 

[Amsel]

History always repeats itself.

 

[Vassili Zaitzev]

History always repeats itself.

Unfortunately, I just hope there's someone to stop that from happening.

 

[GrauGeist]

Unfortunately, I just hope there's someone to stop that from happening.

There always is...usually at a great cost, however...

 

[Vassili Zaitzev]

There always is...usually at a great cost, however...

Ain't that the truth.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

My mind has a tough time processing that.

Believe it, it happened. Like I said, I saw one my self at the museum.

The reason you have a hard time processing it, is because you are not an Evil SOB!

The really odd thing about these killers (doesn't matter if they were at Buchenwald or a Gulag or Cambodia) is the humanity of their character. They could kill people all day long and then come home to cry over the death of a family pet. It's mind boggling the lack of empathy they have, the lack of connection, with their victims.

When you get right down to it, they were ordinary men and women that came to a situation which brought out the worst in their characters. Exploiting a character flaw, I guess.

I don't have trouble understanding what they did. I have trouble understanding how they could do it and go on living relatively normal lives.

Of the three leader that committed these crimes, Hitler I see as the embodiment of ambition wthout moral scruples. In the end, with the Nazis, the Jews just got in the way. The Final Solution was just that. For the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and any other morally or physically undesireables. Fixing a problem in the most efficient way.

Pol Pot was trying to go back to his youth in a village and institute a life of "joy through work". One society, one community, all of it under "Uncle" as Pol Pot was known. He was a true believer, but the whole idea, from start to finish, was corrupt. Deaths were a neccessary evil to Pol Pot. Had to get rid of those who were a problem to his agrarian dream.

But Stalin is still someone who I don't get. Maybe in another life, he would've committed suicide or been a petty, local official in some Govt Agency with a mean streak. But, even when the movement to industrialize Russia is taken into account, the scope of his murderous regieme and depravity beggars description. Weird as it may seem, I understand Pol Pot and Hitler. I understand how it could happen. But Stalin, I just don't get. He went so far beyond what was needed to make Russia great. He went to terror for it's own sake, murder for murder's sake. With Stalin, it was enjoyable. At least that is the way I see it.

I understand Hitler and his reasoning which comes from the progressive movement that began in the 1920's. The progressives in that era were into eugenics. His reasoning was to build a mighty socialist state using the progressive ideas of the time. He is the embodiement of the narcissistic despot who in his progressiveness to force his utopian ideas upon his nation, has no scruples as to how to achieve utopia. For him the end justifies the means of getting there. He was so closely tied to Germany in his mind that he became Germany. As his mind eroded so did the true strength and morals of Germany. In his derangement and self defeating behavior he destroyed his nation. He differs very little from all the other progressive despots of the world except he was building a utopia for Germany while the Russian despots were building an international utopia. We can see his type of narcissistic, and insane behavior in many politicians the world over. The progressive ideas are the same but eugenics fell away to psychiatry, and then the health craze and now it is about global warming and ecoterrorism. For some people to build utopia the ends justify the means, and if it hurts regular people then in their mind those people are getting in the way of progress and need to be eliminated.

It is all about control. To a progressive leader, utopia is built not through liberty, life , and the pursuit of happiness but control of everybody and everything and shaped in his image.

Very good posts, and very interesting insight. I can for the most part agree with the both of you. It is really hard to understand and sometimes it is painful to do so, but when one tries to understand the (note this does not mean agree with) what was all going on at that time, one can kind of understand how it came to happen.

 

[Ferdinand Foch]

Unfortunately, I just hope there's someone to stop that from happening.

There always is...usually at a great cost, however...

True on both parts guys. Sadly, I do believe that the world is short of Churchill's and Eden's at the moment, hopefully that will change, but probably not anytime soon.

Personally, I do have a tough time putting all the regimes mentioned here on a level of who was the worst. They are all ruthless bastards to me. However, I do have to say that, in terms of popular support, I think that Hitler and the Nazi's are up there, even just a pinch over Stalin and Tojo.
I mean, the patriotic fever that I've seen from documentaries between '33 and '39 show that a huge majority of Germans and German oriented people in other parts of the world truely believed in Hitler and his damn nazi thugs (except for those few who openly criticized the Hitler Regime, and then disappeared into the night by the Gestapo). I can see like in Russia, people would support Stalin so they won't be shot or sent to the gulags. But a lot of Germans really supported Hitler not of terror, but out of their loyalty and devotion to him. Please criticize me if I'm wrong, but just the whole "cult of personality" that you are able to see in old films of nazi rallies from the regular German populace is kinda terrifying. It angers and scares the crap outta me! It was only when the Allies began to beat back the German armies, and were bombing the Third Reich back into the stone age, that the majority of Germans began to distrust the authority of the nazi's. Just my opinion, but I think that the Nazi regime is the worst because of this.
This is kinda stupid, but one of my biggest regrets is that I was not alive in this time period. I wish I could've done something to help stop the Nazi regime, whether it would be a sole political voice like Churchill, Eden, or Duff Cooper, or even join the army and militarily combat this Fascist threat.

 

[vanir]

cult of personality" that you are able to see in old films of nazi rallies from the regular German populace is kinda terrifying.

It is propaganda footage. Like showing only sports events on the television, people start to think everybody in that city is crazy about sports. Footage like this is why Leni Reifenstahl is still hailed the most influential director in history. It is a movie production, like Star Wars.
The reality is indeed butchery in the streets and a whole lot of lying. Notably absent from these rallies is the ca.25% of the population being actively persecuted, and the countless others who felt they couldn't do anything to prevent it, but weren't exactly all for it. What about the ca 47% of the vote against the Nazis for example and like the US voting wasn't compulsory, so what about all those too cynical to vote. You won't see any of them at those rallies and on the newsmedia screenings around the world you won't see anything but the rallies (and concocted scenes of utopic aryan lifestyle in Germany now the Nazis are in power).
Careful not to believe the very thing the Nazis wanted you to.

 

[GrauGeist]

...This is kinda stupid, but one of my biggest regrets is that I was not alive in this time period. I wish I could've done something to help stop the Nazi regime, whether it would be a sole political voice like Churchill, Eden, or Duff Cooper, or even join the army and militarily combat this Fascist threat.

Don't regret not being there, many people with the idea in mind to put a stop to that madness did step up, and eventually toppled those idiots.

Instead, armed with what you know of past history, look to today's world and be vigillant against any that would try and repeat those dark episodes.

 

[Ferdinand Foch]

Vanir: Thanks. Forgot that most propaganda movies only focus on the 10% of population supporting 'em, while the other ninety percent is kept out of the spotlight.
GG: Thanks. Hopefully there are more out there like us that think the same way.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Personally, I do have a tough time putting all the regimes mentioned here on a level of who was the worst. They are all ruthless bastards to me. However, I do have to say that, in terms of popular support, I think that Hitler and the Nazi's are up there, even just a pinch over Stalin and Tojo.
I mean, the patriotic fever that I've seen from documentaries between '33 and '39 show that a huge majority of Germans and German oriented people in other parts of the world truely believed in Hitler and his damn nazi thugs (except for those few who openly criticized the Hitler Regime, and then disappeared into the night by the Gestapo). I can see like in Russia, people would support Stalin so they won't be shot or sent to the gulags. But a lot of Germans really supported Hitler not of terror, but out of their loyalty and devotion to him. Please criticize me if I'm wrong, but just the whole "cult of personality" that you are able to see in old films of nazi rallies from the regular German populace is kinda terrifying. It angers and scares the crap outta me! It was only when the Allies began to beat back the German armies, and were bombing the Third Reich back into the stone age, that the majority of Germans began to distrust the authority of the nazi's. Just my opinion, but I think that the Nazi regime is the worst because of this.
This is kinda stupid, but one of my biggest regrets is that I was not alive in this time period. I wish I could've done something to help stop the Nazi regime, whether it would be a sole political voice like Churchill, Eden, or Duff Cooper, or even join the army and militarily combat this Fascist threat.

You have to understand though how this came about.

When Hitler was elected by the German people, he only promised good things. The German people were living in disgrace and economic ruin. He brought them out of it and did only good things at first. After he was elected, he banned all other parties and abolished elections which made him a dictator and he could do as he pleases. Until that point however he was a beloved leader. Hell I believe it was even the NY Times that called him the man of the year.

Hitler was also a very charismatic person. His speeches could literally "hypnotize" a viewer to follow him. He had this "charm" over people.

A lot of these films that you see are "propaganda" films. They show the viewer what the party wanted you to see. The majority of the films take place Nazi Party Grounds in Nurnberg (which by the way are still here, in fact I was at a Rock Festival on the grounds last week). The people that are on the film are all Nazi Party members. They were filmed for a purpose, to show the viewer that this is what everyone was like.

 

[timshatz]

Unfortunately, I just hope there's someone to stop that from happening.

There are some that who's careers were "truncated" (read: got whacked) relatively early in the process and didn't make it to positions of great power. Look at Huey Long, The Kingfish. He was in the same mold as other totalitarian dictators and he was in the US. Ran Louisiana like it was his own property. Ended up getting assasinated (some say mistakenly shot by his own bodyguards). He was the original "Share the Wealth" operator in the US.

He would've been trouble to the US and the World if he'd gone further.

 

[Vassili Zaitzev]

There are some that who's careers were "truncated" (read: got whacked) relatively early in the process and didn't make it to positions of great power. Look at Huey Long, The Kingfish. He was in the same mold as other totalitarian dictators and he was in the US. Ran Louisiana like it was his own property. Ended up getting assasinated (some say mistakenly shot by his own bodyguards). He was the original "Share the Wealth" operator in the US.

He would've been trouble to the US and the World if he'd gone further.

Think I remember him from history. Pretty sure he got shot by his trigger happy guards.

 

[Ferdinand Foch]

You have to understand though how this came about.

When Hitler was elected by the German people, he only promised good things. The German people were living in disgrace and economic ruin. He brought them out of it and did only good things at first. After he was elected, he banned all other parties and abolished elections which made him a dictator and he could do as he pleases. Until that point however he was a beloved leader. Hell I believe it was even the NY Times that called him the man of the year.

Hitler was also a very charismatic person. His speeches could literally "hypnotize" a viewer to follow him. He had this "charm" over people.

A lot of these films that you see are "propaganda" films. They show the viewer what the party wanted you to see. The majority of the films take place Nazi Party Grounds in Nurnberg (which by the way are still here, in fact I was at a Rock Festival on the grounds last week). The people that are on the film are all Nazi Party members. They were filmed for a purpose, to show the viewer that this is what everyone was like.

Thanks for the criticism Adler. I forgot about the fact that many Germans believed in Hitler because of his promises to get Germany out of the Great Depression, and make it a great country again. Kinda forgot to put myself in their shoes at the time, where people were starving, and the only thing that wheelbarrows of inflated money were good for were fuel for fireplaces.
You are right, though, about Hitler being Man of the Year for the Times magazine back in 1938. Hell, Josef Stalin was Man of the Year twice!
Got to tell you though, Hitler was a much better speaker than he was a writer, least when he was young. Started reading Mein Kampf at Barnes and Noble friday. He jumps around from place to place too much; it's like a slogging match through each page.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Thanks for the criticism Adler.

Oh that was not criticism my friend. Just carrying on a conversation.

 

[Ferdinand Foch]

Oh right, he. Still, promising all of this change in a short while and getting all of this support (even though many people were starving and in financial desperation) kinda scares me. I just hope that the U.S. never gets into this sort of situation again.

 

[timshatz]

Think I remember him from history. Pretty sure he got shot by his trigger happy guards.

Yeah, bummer. Popped by your own Rent a Cops.

 

[Vassili Zaitzev]

Yeah, bummer. Popped by your own Rent a Cops.

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy though.

After looking it up on wiki, there's two stories. One: Dr. Carl Austin Weiss shot Long once or twice. Two: Weiss punched Long in the face, and Long caught friendly fire from his bodyguards. Don't know the definitive answer, but Long had a swollen lip when he went to the hospital. And since Weiss was shot sixy-one times, I'm sure some stray bullet hit Long.

 

[Yerger]

Stalin. Body count is hard to argue against, especally all being your own.