Messy1
Master Sergeant
Agree 100% Thor. I learn something new every day! Great info!
Who was more ruthless?
- Thread starter Thorlifter
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Butters
Senior Airman
Kristallnacht was organized by the Nazis, but the '20,000 killed' is in error. IIRC, approx 90 were actually murdered during the event. Another 100,000 or so were arrested of which 20,000 were imprisoned. A sizeable number died in the prison camps, while others we eventually released (For a while...) Thousands of Jews of Polish origin were also expelled at the Polish border. The Poles turned most back, as they were also virulently anti-semitic. As was most of 'civilized' Europe...
JL
JL
Glad you enjoyed the post Thor. The KRs are one of the unknown elements in world history. Really make the Nazis and Stalinist look second rate when it comes to mass murder.
My point about Krystalnacht (sp?) and the Night of the Long Knives is neither one really was planned, whereas Stalin's actions were based on quotas, lists and the mindless efficiency of state sponsored terror.
Krystalnacht came about as a result of an assasination of a low level functionary in Paris by a Jewish Assassin. While the underlying intent had been simmering for a while, it took full form with the news of the assasination. It was more of a spontaneous outburst, a riot by the rank and file of those in power, than a planned event. Hitler, and this is not to his credit, did not want it to happen. More than anything, Hitler wanted power and control. Krystalnacht was a rampage and it got away from the authorities. Hitler wanted the Jews gone, he really didn't care where they went, just out of Germany and the German controled world. But he wanted it in an orderly fashion.
Night of the Long Knives was the result of another long simmering conflict. The Brown Shirts were grunts and uncontrolable. They gave the Nazis a bad name (believe it or not). Same with Germany. There were also questons of power between the leader of the Brown Shirts (Rohm) and Himmler/Goering clan. Both sides were loyal to Hitler, but one side or the other was going to come out on top. The breaking point came when Rohm tried to take over the Army via political methods (becoming head of defense). The powers that be (Army) were against it and told Hitler to get rid of Rohm and his bunch. It was also the price the Army pressed on Hitler for their loyalty to him. So, in a spasm of violence, Hitler got rid of the heads of the SA, and greatly reduced the power of the SA. Therafter, the SA shrank to insignificance as a power in Nazi Germany.
It was the way the Nazis were. They were passionate about their beliefs. Twisted logic, to be sure. They were not as methodical as the Soviets. Efficient? At times yes. But not in the political sense. They were more opportunists than working from a set plan.
That is why I see the Soviets as darker. Stalin needed enemies, not friends. Stalin needed terror, not support. He kept everyone in line, then shot 5% of the people in the line. Further, he issued quotas for "enemies of the state" and they had to be filled. Didn't matter if they existed, they had to be arrested, tried and shot (or sent to the gulag). Most of the people arrested knew they were innocent, the jailers knew they were innocent, the courts knew they were innocent. But the populace had to be terrorized into submission. Further, the best way to make sure your name didn't end up on a quota, was to overfill your quota. Quota comes from Moscow for 3000 "enemies of the state", shoot 4000 and show you are a good communist and support Stalin. How do you do that? Pick up some guy off the street. Tell him he is going to be shot unless he tells you the name of 10 enemies of the state. He says he doesn't know. Beat him. He'll give you the names. Then you arrest them and get ten more from each of them. And so on and so on. In the end, you send those to the work camps that are required and shoot the rest.
People lived in terror of the knock on the door. Some said it was a relief when it came because they didn't need to live in fear anymore.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
For perspective let's see what nature can do [Wikepedia - Spanish flu]:
"...The pandemic lasted from March 1918 to June 1920,spreading even to the Arctic and remote Pacific islands. It is estimated that anywhere from 50 to 100 million people were killed worldwide, or the approximate equivalent of one third of the population of Europe [500 million infected] .."
Pause for thought on sheer scale and speed. Nature isn't put off by large numbers.
MM
"...The pandemic lasted from March 1918 to June 1920,spreading even to the Arctic and remote Pacific islands. It is estimated that anywhere from 50 to 100 million people were killed worldwide, or the approximate equivalent of one third of the population of Europe [500 million infected] .."
Pause for thought on sheer scale and speed. Nature isn't put off by large numbers.
MM
Butters
Senior Airman
True enough. The difference being that a virus isn't really trying to kill you. it just happens...
When it comes to murder, it's the thought that counts.
JL
When it comes to murder, it's the thought that counts.
JL
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
GrauGeist - I read your comment and researched it a little more. It appears that the list I got his name from was perahaps a little biased. I have to agree with you.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
No prob!
The problem I have seen on the internet especially, is that there is no real formal forum to debate facts or research, the closest being Wiki, perhaps.
Yet another reason why this forum rocks, is because folks can ask questions, or post some info, and it'll get either clarified, validated or debated. It just can't get any better than that, in my opinion
Otherwise, you had a decent list of junior douchebags...and maybe we could add Nicolai Ceausescu and Slobodan Milosevic to it...
imalko
Chief Master Sergeant
Biased? No kidding! And they put Tito and Ante Pavelić on the same list. Talk about really stretching it too far...
I won't comment on GG mention of Milošević because this would very soon turn into political discussion and I don't want that... Let's just say that since I live in Serbia I know how he was first hand.
Last edited:
No they did, I have actually seen some lamp shades made out of human skin at the Belsen Bergen Concentration Camp museum.
Industrial Genocide. Turning people into assets, dismembered for profitable use.
The thing that scares me about that is I don't think we've seen the last of it. Somebody will do it again in the future. And that, more than anything, bothers me most about the Nazis. It was the first, but certainly not the last, of the industrial genocides.
My mind has a tough time processing that.
Messy1
Master Sergeant
That almost made me sick to think about that! Cannot imagine seeing it in person.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
It is a horrible thought, but I've seen photos of the lampshades. I've also seen the photos where the teeth with gold filling or crowns were piled into bins, sitting in a warehouse along with other items, like eyeglasses.
Messy1
Master Sergeant
I have seen photos about that too GG! Rooms completely filled with gold teeth. One of my most vivid memories is from watching a PBS show about the concentration camps, and seeing a bulldozer pushing this pile of what looked like skeletons with skin on them into a mass grave after the camp was liberated. I still see that, and it has been years since I watched that show.
- Thread starter
- #55
Thorlifter
Captain
Understood Amsel. It's a tough thing for normal people to grasp.
Read this about the Bitch of Buchenwald
Ilse Koch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Or just do a search for Ilse Koch. I'm sure there are tons of websites documenting her exploits.
Messy1
Master Sergeant
Ahh, Amsel, but I am also comforted by by the larger numbers of those who chose to stand up and fight against those who committed these heinous acts!
The really odd thing about these killers (doesn't matter if they were at Buchenwald or a Gulag or Cambodia) is the humanity of their character. They could kill people all day long and then come home to cry over the death of a family pet. It's mind boggling the lack of empathy they have, the lack of connection, with their victims.
When you get right down to it, they were ordinary men and women that came to a situation which brought out the worst in their characters. Exploiting a character flaw, I guess.
I don't have trouble understanding what they did. I have trouble understanding how they could do it and go on living relatively normal lives.
Of the three leader that committed these crimes, Hitler I see as the embodiment of ambition wthout moral scruples. In the end, with the Nazis, the Jews just got in the way. The Final Solution was just that. For the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and any other morally or physically undesireables. Fixing a problem in the most efficient way.
Pol Pot was trying to go back to his youth in a village and institute a life of "joy through work". One society, one community, all of it under "Uncle" as Pol Pot was known. He was a true believer, but the whole idea, from start to finish, was corrupt. Deaths were a neccessary evil to Pol Pot. Had to get rid of those who were a problem to his agrarian dream.
But Stalin is still someone who I don't get. Maybe in another life, he would've committed suicide or been a petty, local official in some Govt Agency with a mean streak. But, even when the movement to industrialize Russia is taken into account, the scope of his murderous regieme and depravity beggars description. Weird as it may seem, I understand Pol Pot and Hitler. I understand how it could happen. But Stalin, I just don't get. He went so far beyond what was needed to make Russia great. He went to terror for it's own sake, murder for murder's sake. With Stalin, it was enjoyable. At least that is the way I see it.
When you get right down to it, they were ordinary men and women that came to a situation which brought out the worst in their characters. Exploiting a character flaw, I guess.
I don't have trouble understanding what they did. I have trouble understanding how they could do it and go on living relatively normal lives.
Of the three leader that committed these crimes, Hitler I see as the embodiment of ambition wthout moral scruples. In the end, with the Nazis, the Jews just got in the way. The Final Solution was just that. For the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and any other morally or physically undesireables. Fixing a problem in the most efficient way.
Pol Pot was trying to go back to his youth in a village and institute a life of "joy through work". One society, one community, all of it under "Uncle" as Pol Pot was known. He was a true believer, but the whole idea, from start to finish, was corrupt. Deaths were a neccessary evil to Pol Pot. Had to get rid of those who were a problem to his agrarian dream.
But Stalin is still someone who I don't get. Maybe in another life, he would've committed suicide or been a petty, local official in some Govt Agency with a mean streak. But, even when the movement to industrialize Russia is taken into account, the scope of his murderous regieme and depravity beggars description. Weird as it may seem, I understand Pol Pot and Hitler. I understand how it could happen. But Stalin, I just don't get. He went so far beyond what was needed to make Russia great. He went to terror for it's own sake, murder for murder's sake. With Stalin, it was enjoyable. At least that is the way I see it.
I understand Hitler and his reasoning which comes from the progressive movement that began in the 1920's. The progressives in that era were into eugenics. His reasoning was to build a mighty socialist state using the progressive ideas of the time. He is the embodiement of the narcissistic despot who in his progressiveness to force his utopian ideas upon his nation, has no scruples as to how to achieve utopia. For him the end justifies the means of getting there. He was so closely tied to Germany in his mind that he became Germany. As his mind eroded so did the true strength and morals of Germany. In his derangement and self defeating behavior he destroyed his nation. He differs very little from all the other progressive despots of the world except he was building a utopia for Germany while the Russian despots were building an international utopia. We can see his type of narcissistic, and insane behavior in many politicians the world over. The progressive ideas are the same but eugenics fell away to psychiatry, and then the health craze and now it is about global warming and ecoterrorism. For some people to build utopia the ends justify the means, and if it hurts regular people then in their mind those people are getting in the way of progress and need to be eliminated.
It is all about control. To a progressive leader, utopia is built not through liberty, life , and the pursuit of happiness but control of everybody and everything and shaped in his image.
It is all about control. To a progressive leader, utopia is built not through liberty, life , and the pursuit of happiness but control of everybody and everything and shaped in his image.
Last edited:
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Tim, I think in Uncle Joe's case, it was corrupted power mixed with paranoia.
The Bolsheviks came to power by deceit and maintained power by fear. Stalin knew that to hold power in that system, you had to be more ruthless than the system, which he was. He had war heros, seasoned generals, strong supporters and even his close friends murdered.
Abraham Lincoln once said "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power".
The Bolsheviks came to power by deceit and maintained power by fear. Stalin knew that to hold power in that system, you had to be more ruthless than the system, which he was. He had war heros, seasoned generals, strong supporters and even his close friends murdered.
Abraham Lincoln once said "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power".
