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And here we get to the heart of the matter.
Hawker and Supermarine both failed to meet the specification. Hawker by a little and Supermarine by a lot. There is also a difference between prototypes and service models.
Hurricane prototype at 5672lbs needed 265 yd take off run and 430 yds to clear the 50ft barrier. corrected for zero wind. Not bad but the problem was landing. It needed 475 yds from 50ft. with brakes and with a 5mph wind. Everybody who thinks they should have cut 30-60 sq feet of wing area please raise your hands
Problem really hits home when the weight for a service Hurricane I with wooden two blade prop hit 6040lbs and the take off run went to 370yds and distance to 50 ft went to 580yds.
Now lets add another 50 gallons of fuel had see how much runway we need
Things got better with the 2 pitch propeller but that was around 3 years after the Hurricane prototype flew.
Take-off figures for the Spitfire prototype are not listed on WWII Aircraft Performance but Aug through Dec 1938 K.9787 gave the following results.
K.9787 was almost 500lbs heavier than the prototype.
420yd take off run with 720 yds to 50 ft. and landing run was 380 yds with brakes. This was corrected to no wind and standard atmosphere. With an 8mph head wind and at 20 degrees F (?) the take off run was 367yds and it took until 640yds to clear the 50ft distance. Landing ground run was 315yds.
So which brave (but suicidal) pilots want to strap a 50-60 gal tank to the plane and take off from a standard RAF fighter field on a hot summer zero wind day so they can escort any sort of bomber across the channel? Things got better with two pitch prop with the take-off run shortened to 320yds and distance to 50 ft down to 490yds.
109 with Jumo engine was designed to carry two machine guns and only 270 (?) liters of fuel and had better flaps (not saying much), You can use a much smaller wing when the plane only weighs around 4400lbs.
Aircraft | Defiant I | Beaufighter I | Blenheim IVF | Tomahawk | Havoc I | Havoc II | Gauntlet | Gladiator | Hurricane I | Hurricane I | Spitfire I | Whirlwind |
Wing Sq ft | 250 | 503 | 469 | 236 | 465 | 465 | 315 | 323 | 258 | 258 | 242 | 250 |
Tare (pounds) | 5938 | 13,918 | 9,236 | 5,615 | 11,800 | 13,073 | 2,933 | 3,695 | 5,210 | 5,085 | 4,795 | 8,040 |
Weight (pounds) | 7710 | 19,816 | 12,660 | 7,224 | 15,400 | 16,700 | 4,028 | 4,757 | 6,629 | 6,532 | 6,255 | 9,980 |
Take Off (Over 50 ft) (Yards) | 500 | 790 | 550 | 570 | 600 | 420 | 320 | 370 | 520 | 430 | 400 | 630 |
Landing (Over 50 ft) (Yards) | 770 | 940 | 730 | 630 | 560 | 551 | n/a | 475 | 610 | 600 | 590 | 750 |
- | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
Weight (pounds) | n/a | 21,120 | 14,100 | 7,602 | n/a | n/a | n/a | 4,912 | 6,758 | 6,661 | n/a | 10,115 |
Take Off (Over 50 ft) (Yards) | n/a | 940 | 720 | 620 | n/a | n/a | n/a | 420 | 540 | 445 | n/a | 580 |
Well, there was quite a bit of evolution with the 109.Then about the Bf 109: As I recall it the Germans instead had a wing loading requirement which Willy Messerschmitt choose to ignore because he knew that high wing loading is the easiest and safest path to high speed performance. It is said that Milch (who did not like Messerschmitt), still allowed the Bf 109 to compete with the others like Heinkel, not as a serious contender, but more as a "pike in the carp pool" to make the (in Milch's view) more serious contenders walk the extra mile. However, as we all know, this plan backfired on Milch and the rest is history.......
I thought the multi thousand RAF heavy bomber ideas were post June 1940, not pre war.
"The 109 was not designed to fight/fly/land at a wing loading in the high 30lb/sq/ft range." Well neither was the Spitfire: There was not only an evolution in terms of wing loading for the Bf 109: This was also the case for the Spitfire which actually ended up with a higher wing loading in the Spitfire Mk 14 than the Bf 109E4 had in 1939. The weight creep lead to both designs having wing loadings at the end of the war that would have seemed outlandish in the late 1930's. My point was that Messerschmitt in the initial design work was allowed to go to a 25% higher wing loading (125 kg/sqrm) than the other competing German designs from Heinkel and Arado which at a time were limited to 100 kg/sqrm (or 20.5 lb/sqft). In addition, all things are relative and "Adding another 20% to go from the 109E to the 109G-6 (57% more than the 109B) certainly didn't help." and "Increasing the wing loading by almost 30% didn't help either maneuver or landing qualities." Well, both the P-47C and P-51D had higher wing loadings that the Bf 109G6, so I would not be too worried about the Bf 109 G6 having a particularly high wing loading.Well, there was quite a bit of evolution with the 109.
Willy and the boys did use a smaller wing but compared to the British fighters the 109V1 with the Kestrel engine and no guns was about 1800kg. A service 109B was about 2000kg and a 109E about 2600kg depending on guns. 109E empty weight was just over the loaded weight of the 109V1. The extra power of the DB601 certainly helped the speed and climb. Increasing the wing loading by almost 30% didn't help either maneuver or landing qualities. Adding another 20% to go from the 109E to the 109G-6 (57% more than the 109B) certainly didn't help. But that is as evolved vs as designed. The 109 was not designed to fight/fly/land at a wing loading in the high 30lb/sq/ft range.
Other planes were and they had different landing gear (and longer runways) and different flaps, etc to try to deal with it.
Absolutely: I believe the phenomena is called the technology S-curve. And commercial aviation is now on the upper, mature part of the S-curve asymptotically approaching the optimal. As a boy, I flew in the brand new Boeing 747 "Jumbojet" from London to Johannesburg in 1970 IIRC, but AFAIK the 747 was retired just a few years ago. Granted, the engines on the late versions were quite different and more fuel efficient than back then but the airframe? Basically the same. Just like sharks really: not much to improve on!Most aircraft are designed for a purpose or multiple purposes. The designer has a pantry of ingredients to mix in order to come up with a recipe that works for the intended purpose. In the rapidly changing first half of the 20th century, the availability of materials, engines, engineering knowledge (ie., structural and aerodynamic design techniques), and infrastructure (airfields, fuels, manufacturing capabilities). to name a few. Availability of money and manpower are always considerations. We have now reached a plateau where a transport aircraft today may not look dramatically different from one designed 50 years ago. Try saying that in 1950! However, technology is a many splintered thing and the devil is often in the details. Thus an aircraft that does not appear much different from another may, based upon the parameters each is judged by (first cost, operating cost, payload, infrastructure requirements (for example, runway length), be much better or worse. The operative words for any designer are tradeoffs and iteration.
W.A.Medcalf PEME (aviation nut 1937 to 2024)
What are their titles?I am reading few books that are rather critical of the RAF in the late 30s and early 40s
Author is Greg Baughen. There are 4-5 books (?)What are their titles?
The Lysander was a more survivable aircraft than the Auster.
Ignoring the dates, just change "some of..." to all humans.However other authors have pointed out that some of the British (and French) officers did tend to cherry pick the experiences of the 1st WW to suit their own view points during the 20s and 30s and discount experiences that were contrary.
again change some officers to all humans, a characteristic that obviously appears around the age of 1 or 2And what some officers wanted vs what they could actually get approved/authorized may not be the same thing.
Which is no doubt why the Luftwaffe should have stripped the eastern etc. fronts of all aircraft, to support the Mortain counter attack and take Avranches in August 1944, or at least destroyed the single bridge third army was using, leaving the now isolated Americans vulnerable to heavy defeat. Bradley noted the ground attack taking place further would likely have done much better.But the losses should not be long term, only at peak times and/or emergency to archive or stop a breakthrough. And the losses to the army of failing to stop a breakthrough (or failing to achieve one if blocked part way through) are going to be very high for the countries involved. Air forces are supposed to part of the country, not fighting their own war.
Type | Brewster | Havoc I | Havoc II | Mohawk I | Tomahawk | Martlet | Total Imports | UK |
Jun-40 | 0 | 8 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 8 | 446 |
Jul-40 | 21 | 0 | 0 | 32 | 0 | 0 | 53 | 496 |
Aug-40 | 11 | 14 | 0 | 37 | 1 | 6 | 69 | 476 |
Sep-40 | 1 | 34 | 0 | 117 | 0 | 38 | 190 | 468 |
Oct-40 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 18 | 69 | 6 | 97 | 469 |
Nov-40 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 50 | 15 | 65 | 459 |
Dec-40 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 161 | 6 | 170 | 413 |
Total | 33 | 60 | 3 | 204 | 281 | 71 | 652 | 3,227 |
Author is Greg Baughen. There are 4-5 books (?)
He does use a fair amount of hindsight.
However other authors have pointed out that some of the British (and French) officers did tend to cherry pick the experiences of the 1st WW to suit their own view points during the 20s and 30s and discount experiences that were contrary.
And what some officers wanted vs what they could actually get approved/authorized may not be the same thing.
The British were far from the only air force to go down the path that lead to the Lysander. The French went even further down that path but with the fast fall of France for a number of reasons the French Air force failings tend to get over looked.
View attachment 790602
They had ordered almost 1400 of these with 730 delivered and while these were an improvement on this
View attachment 790603
60 built with the observer in the gondola instead of in the nose. Faster than a Lysander but without fighter escort they were equally doomed/ineffective. I won't go over other nations except to point out the German Hs 126, which was replaced by the Storch.
The problem here was that the Auster is more survivable than it is give credit for for several reasons. Any recon plane short of a single seat fighter (very high speed bomber?) needs escorts or air supremacy to survive. You can limit losses by picking the mission/s. Hedge hop, don't fly more than a few miles into enemy territory and get out quick, don't try to play light bomber and so on. And Austers are a lot cheaper than Lysanders. Pilots aren't but stupid tactics/missions are going to lose Lysanders, Potez 63.11, Hs 126s etc in large numbers.
EVERYBODY fell into the strategic bomber trap and the idea that a few hundred bombers could destroy a single city and cause rioting in the streets and the forced surrender of the central government. So bombers were seen as cheap alternatives to land armies, Navies, and tactical aircraft. The more bombers you had the faster you could force the enemy to surrender.
British and French had done some good things with tactical air in 1918. Problem was that was costly. But not as costly as losing the battle as a whole. And this is where the lessons taken go in different directions. Air force/s say " we cannot afford such losses long term" and they are right. But the losses should not be long term, only at peak times and/or emergency to archive or stop a breakthrough. And the losses to the army of failing to stop a breakthrough (or failing to achieve one if blocked part way through) are going to be very high for the countries involved. Air forces are supposed to part of the country, not fighting their own war.
As of June 1934 the Hurricane prototype normal loaded weight was expected to be 4,600 pounds, by December 4,800 pounds, as of August 1935 5,200 pounds, as weighed in October 5,416 pounds with Watts two-bladed, fixed pitch (wood) airscrew fitted. As of March 1938 first production Hurricane L1547 Normal Loaded Weight was 6,017 pounds.
Gauntlet F7/30 at best (no prototype as such, K4081 FF Dec-34), Gladiator F7/30 & F14/35 (FF Sep-34), Hurricane F5/34 & F10/35 (FF Nov-35), Spitfire F10/35 (FF Mar-36), Defiant F9/35 (Aug-37), Whirlwind F37/35 (Oct-38) Blenheim night fighter decided on in mid 1938, first examples around in December.
From 1935 on the expected size of a fighter airfield was rapidly changing, at least some would need to be light bomber size. Even a 2 man crew single engine fighter was going to need more room than a single seater.
First Hurricane column DH, second column Rotol propeller and yes the report actually says adding weight to the Whirlwind reduces take off run.
Aircraft Defiant I Beaufighter I Blenheim IVF Tomahawk Havoc I Havoc II Gauntlet Gladiator Hurricane I Hurricane I Spitfire I Whirlwind Wing Sq ft 250 503 469 236 465 465 315 323 258 258 242 250Tare (pounds) 5938 13,918 9,236 5,615 11,800 13,073 2,933 3,695 5,210 5,085 4,795 8,040Weight (pounds) 7710 19,816 12,660 7,224 15,400 16,700 4,028 4,757 6,629 6,532 6,255 9,980Take Off (Over 50 ft) (Yards) 500 790 550 570 600 420 320 370 520 430 400 630Landing (Over 50 ft) (Yards) 770 940 730 630 560 551n/a 475 610 600 590 750- - - - - - - - - - - - - Weight (pounds) n/a 21,120 14,100 7,602n/a n/a n/a 4,912 6,758 6,661n/a 10,115Take Off (Over 50 ft) (Yards) n/a 940 720 620n/a n/a n/a 420 540 445n/a 580
The RAF 15 minute allowance for the Spitfire I used 19.5 gallons, leaving 64.5 gallons available for cruise at 15,000 feet. At 304 mph that gave a range of 415 miles, at 180-190 mph 575 miles, simply adding the extra 12 gallons of forward fuselage fuel the mark VII and VIII carried extends those ranges to 490 and 680 miles, give the mark I the full 124 mark VII and VIII internal fuel capacity and the ranges are 670 and 930 miles. Quite adequate if based in France (though Nancy to Berlin is about 415 miles versus 580 from London) but the RAF at best was doing the occasional light/medium bomber escort training, the heavies, like Wellingtons, were on their own.
Agreed a neutral Holland/Belgium/Denmark makes air attacks to/from Britain/Germany long range affairs, going over the North Sea runs into two RAF declared impossibilities, long range fighter and single seat fighter pilot having long range navigation skills. Belgium in the war as per WWI largely removes the range problem, more so as the RAF over rated the importance of the Ruhr.
I thought the multi thousand RAF heavy bomber ideas were post June 1940, not pre war.
Maybe 11 inches of vertical travel?Actually while he had experience with planes in Nautical conditions from a corrosion/weather standpoint, He didn't have much experience designing planes for carrier operations. Aside from using the Seagull/Walrus family from carriers.
Mitchell was skilled and could see outside the box. He could not perform magic and he could not see into the future or perform Jedi mind tricks to get the Air Ministry to go along with his ideas. Just a year and especially 2 years could make large changes in what engines were favored by the Air Ministry, and what power could be expected from the engines as they changed from 87 octane to 100 octane let alone the change in 1940-41 to 100/130 fuel. "the late 1930s" covers large changes in engines, armament and lift devices in just a few years.
In early 1937 the designer has a choice of .303 machine guns or.................................303 machine guns. Doesn't matter what the aircraft designer thinks aircraft armament should be. Air Ministry may have expressed a desire for 20mm guns but they have not adopted one. In 1938 they have adopted the Hispano gun, bought the license and are building the factory. At this point the Hispano is drum feed only.
The Sabre and Vulture and Griffon engines (the later coming late) were attempts to get high power with 87 octane fuel. So what engine is Mitchell going to design his late 30s fighter around?
Mitchell would also have been working in a vacuum. In the late 30s he would have no knowledge of the A6M or the Ki-43 or the Fw 190. He would have known about the Reggiane 2000 indirectly as the Seversky P-35 and kin. The Reggiane 2000 first flew in May 1939 which is rather late to try to "reply" to. The 109 didn't fly with the DB601 engine until 1938.
View attachment 777842
This is the XF4F-2 in 1938. Wings with rounded tips and 2 ft shorter on each side (4ft total), round Vertical fin and rudder, round horizontal stabilizer mounted on the fuselage and not on the fin and only two guns, in the cowl. Things changed a lot in 1939. Of interest is the landing gear. Wildcats had just about 1 ft of vertical travel. 2in was used up just sitting on the ground/deck. A lot of land planes had 6-7in of travel. the long travel landing gear gave a lot cushion on arrested landings.
Mitchell had the Spitfire well in hand, but robust construction for carrier use (arrested landings) means more weight. Longer endurance means more weight. Increased ammo capacity means more weight. Landing characteristics are a fine line, you need good control and low speed but not "floaty". Spitfire had a lot of room for improvement to the flap system as the Spitfire flaps were about as simple as they came. But complicated flaps are heavier and more costly to construct. Everything, repeat, Everything is a compromise.
Now a super-duper Supermarine carrier fighter that first flies in 1939 (very late 1930s) could show large advances over a number of other aircraft. Trouble is that it won't enter squadron service until 1941 if you are lucky. The Fulmar was ordered in mid 1938 off the drawing board and entered service in 1940 and it had the advantage of using the P.4/34 bomber as a flying Prototype. The P.4/34 had flown in Jan 1937 so the ordering off the drawing board was rather low risk. I know it is not want is wanted but it speaks to timing.
Now think about what the Navy and/or Air Ministry wanted at the time (late 30s), assuming that they would accept the idea of a single seat fighter. It is not the speed/climb that really matters. It is the desired endurance (fuel load) and armament weight (guns plus ammo) that help govern the wing loading/landing speed. And some of that goes back to operational requirements. Endurance of 2 hours or 3 or 4 hours? firing time of 15 seconds or 23 seconds or 30 seconds. How often will the fighters have to land to refuel/reload?
With time you will get better engines and perhaps better guns (what is known in 1938?) but you will be stuck with the airframe except for minor changes (cutting or adding to the wing a little bit).
Going back to why planes were designed they way they were. F4F-3 wildcat was designed to carry about 37% more fuel than a Hurricane and about 12% more guns (4 .50s) and over double the amount of ammo (even at just 300rpg). This is before armor and SS tanks show up.
Lets also remember that early A6Ms only held 60 rounds per 20mm and were landing during the Battle of Midway for more ammo. Doesn't matter if you have super range/endurance if you only have 7 seconds of firing time for the big guns.
Any figures for Mohawk (Hawk 75) or Martlet (F4F) in RAF trim? Believe both had constant speed props from the startFrom 1935 on the expected size of a fighter airfield was rapidly changing, at least some would need to be light bomber size. Even a 2 man crew single engine fighter was going to need more room than a single seater.
First Hurricane column DH, second column Rotol propeller and yes the report actually says adding weight to the Whirlwind reduces take off run.
Aircraft Defiant I Beaufighter I Blenheim IVF Tomahawk Havoc I Havoc II Gauntlet Gladiator Hurricane I Hurricane I Spitfire I Whirlwind Wing Sq ft 250 503 469 236 465 465 315 323 258 258 242 250Tare (pounds) 5938 13,918 9,236 5,615 11,800 13,073 2,933 3,695 5,210 5,085 4,795 8,040Weight (pounds) 7710 19,816 12,660 7,224 15,400 16,700 4,028 4,757 6,629 6,532 6,255 9,980Take Off (Over 50 ft) (Yards) 500 790 550 570 600 420 320 370 520 430 400 630Landing (Over 50 ft) (Yards) 770 940 730 630 560 551n/a 475 610 600 590 750- - - - - - - - - - - - - Weight (pounds) n/a 21,120 14,100 7,602n/a n/a n/a 4,912 6,758 6,661n/a 10,115Take Off (Over 50 ft) (Yards) n/a 940 720 620n/a n/a n/a 420 540 445n/a 580
Trials for Mohawk and Martlet included in "Flying to the Limit" by Peter Caygill include land speeds but not distances. They may have included them in the testing but he may have not including them (space/length of chapters?)Any figures for Mohawk (Hawk 75) or Martlet (F4F) in RAF trim? Believe both had constant speed props from the start
take-off may be power to weight? Or thrust to weight.Interesting that the Douglas Havoc had such short take off lengths. Perhaps better high lift flaps? Just guessing, I don't know.
Aircraft | Buffalo | Martlet I | Boston II |
Wing Sq ft | 209 | 260 | 465 |
Tare (pounds) | 4495 | 4,967 | 11,520 |
Weight (pounds) | 6272 | 6,835 | 15,150 |
Take Off (Over 50 ft) (Yards) | 190 (Ground) | 520 | 600 |
Landing (Over 50 ft) (Yards) | n/a | 550 | 540 |