Why France?

[renegate326]

Really?

What is your agenda here?

Agenda ? what do you mean?

 

[renegate326]

Don't be ridiculous. It was a commercial deal with a nation who had been a wartime ally and had made a major contribution to an allied victory in Europe, including incidentally the liberation of France.

Even with a year or so of hind sight it doesn't look like a very smart thing to have done as evidenced by those exchanges in parliament.

A review of the US reaction to the British decision to sell the world's first commercial jet airliner in Eastern Europe might serve as an education. Comet didn't turn out too well in the end anyway!
The US reaction to the world's first supersonic airliner? The US reaction to TSR2 ?

Commercial considerations and airy fairy notions about special relationships and allies don't mix very well. That's the real world for you.

Cheers

Steve

Yes major ally in the war but mortal enemy few years later . The US was against Britains selling the Comet to East Europe because they feared the western technology might be copied and used for building military aircraft and they were right. The Brits however wouldn't listen but the problem was solved when Comets started to fall from sky. The US reaction to TSR-2 ?? what do you mean ?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes major ally in the war but mortal enemy few years later . The US was against Britains selling the Comet to East Europe because they feared the western technology might be copied and used for building military aircraft and they were right. The Brits however wouldn't listen but the problem was solved when Comets started to fall from sky. The US reaction to TSR-2 ?? what do you mean ?

I think more of a backstabbing was France leaving NATO and kicking out her allied friends at the heart of the cold war.

 

[renegate326]

"....the worst backstabbing of an ally in last century ..."

Really .... I didn't know that .... until you pointed it out. Until then I thought it was de Gaulle kicking the Americans and NATO out of France ... followed closely by the Soviets failure to return B-29 bombers that came down in the USSR on missions to Japan.

And of course the Soviets didn't have any spies in Great Britain that could steal the plans for the Nene did they ....?


I feel your pain about this betrayal, renegade326 ..

Well one has nothing to do with the other really..First, the withdrawal of France from NATO's central command came as no surprise to anyone ,it was ecpected years before 1966. De Gaulle wanted full independence in foreign and defence policy especially the command over nuclear weapons. France was the only country in Nato with nuclear strike capability with silo based IRBM's ( S2 and S3 ) and they all were aimed at targets in USSR ! so in the end, NATO was not weakened by this move ,on the contarary the organization became a cohesive unit under American leadership without these so called trouble making French . De Gaulles policy had one huge impact on France for which the people are still grateful . France is the only country in the western hemisphere capable of designing and developing its own weapon systems without depending on foreign sources or technology . It cost lot of money yes but the majority of people think,including socialists,it was worth !

 

[renegate326]

I think more of a backstabbing was France leaving NATO and kicking out her allied friends at the heart of the cold war.

Not as simple as you put ..Americans ,the Johnson administration were delighted to see France leaving NATO so that they could impose their view and policy freely without opposition .

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Not as simple as you put ..Americans ,the Johnson administration were delighted to see France leaving NATO so that they could impose their view and policy freely without opposition .

Not simple as I put it? One could say the same thing about all your posts you have posted here so far.

 

[GrauGeist]

France is the only country in the western hemisphere capable of designing and developing its own weapon systems without depending on foreign sources or technology .

I'm sure the British, Germans and a few other nations would seriously disagree with that.

Not as simple as you put ..Americans ,the Johnson administration were delighted to see France leaving NATO so that they could impose their view and policy freely without opposition .

Right, Americans have the rest of the world ground under their heel.

The whole idea of having France as a partner in NATO was to have a cohesive and unified approach to countering any Soviet or Warsaw-Pact move of aggression instead of trying to figure out who was going to do what in the event of a crisis.

That is basically called "being on the same page".

 

[michaelmaltby]

"...France is the only country in the western hemisphere capable of designing and developing its own weapon systems without depending on foreign sources or technology . It cost lot of money yes but the majority of people think,including socialists,it was worth !..."

Just what the world needs, eh, another fuxxing arms dealer ... with cultural pretensions ... .... vive Le Francophoni ..!

 

[silence]

That France is the savior of the last 200 years and he is here to prove it! The US and UK pretend to have saved modern civilization but he is here to offer proof that France is the true savior of the Anglo world.

My brother tells me that this is pretty much the theme of the Musée de L'armée in Paris. He was barely able to keep from laughing out loud.

 

[silence]

"...France is the only country in the western hemisphere capable of designing and developing its own weapon systems without depending on foreign sources or technology . It cost lot of money yes but the majority of people think,including socialists,it was worth !..."

I thought it was because nobody wanted to work with them.

 

[silence]

Didn't the USAF loose a bomber or two as a result of crew fatigue brought on by not being allowed to fly over France on their way to strike Qadaffi?

 

[tyrodtom]

Didn't the USAF loose a bomber or two as a result of crew fatigue brought on by not being allowed to fly over France on their way to strike Qadaffi?

One F-111 with 2 men was lost. France, Spain, and Italy permitted no overflights, plus no continential European country would allow the aircraft to take off from any NATO bases on their soil. But you can put all the blame for our loses on France if you want.

 

[GrauGeist]

I'm sitting here having dinner mulling over the earlier comment about native French technology and then I remembered that the jet engines of the Mirage fighter were developed from the WWII era BMW003.

Oops!

 

[Njaco]

I'm sitting here having dinner mulling over the earlier comment about native French technology and then I remembered that the jet engines of the Mirage fighter were developed from the WWII era BMW003.

Oops!

Yup, the Burgundy Motor Works.

 

[silence]

One F-111 with 2 men was lost. France, Spain, and Italy permitted no overflights, plus no continential European country would allow the aircraft to take off from any NATO bases on their soil. But you can put all the blame for our loses on France if you want.

Shoulda painted a big FU on the underside and done it anyway.

 

[stona]

There is an apocryphal story that when France withdrew from NATO De Gaulle asked that all US Troops leave French territory as soon as possible.

Secretary of State Dean Rusk supposedly asked "Does that include the thousands we have buried here?"

If De Gaulle replied we don't know what he said.

It may not really have happened but it certainly illustrates a point.

Cheers
Steve

 

[pattle]

There is an apocryphal story that when France withdrew from NATO De Gaulle asked that all US Troops leave French territory as soon as possible.

Secretary of State Dean Rusk supposedly asked "Does that include the thousands we have buried here?"

If De Gaulle replied we don't know what he said.


It may not really have happened but it certainly illustrates a point.

Cheers
Steve

This was a question that just had to be asked.

I remember drinking with a crowd of Germans in Greece some years ago, the British were pretty unpopular at this time because of the post 9-11 invasion of Iraq and the Germans asked me if I agreed with the invasion? I told them no but asked that if one of your friends were to get in a fight wouldn't you still stick up for them even if you were sure they were in the wrong? They agreed that they would and took the point.

 

[michaelmaltby]

"..."Does that include the thousands we have buried here?"

In fairness to the French people ...they have done an honorable, faithful, steadfast job of caring for our Canadian dead from 2 WWs ... and we thank them.

Lately, there's been rumors of a little love-making at our Vimy Ridge memorial .... but I can forgive almost anything for love ...

MM

 

[pbehn]

France was included because of the threat of Soviet Russia, having a seat at the table gives another vote in the Security council.

The French used to annoy me no end, always saying the British were (are) bad Europeans, we have too many of our young men buried there to warrant that description. In my experience the French despise the Americans British and Germans for WWII and in that order. The USA most for their post war hegemony, the British because after 1000 yrs of conflict they needed our help and the Germans last because they actually occupied France.

 

[stona]

The French used to annoy me no end, always saying the British were (are) bad Europeans, we have too many of our young men buried there to warrant that description.

I'm not sure that we are very good Europeans. We've never really signed up 100% to the Franco-German project that is the EU. Oddly now the Germans don't want us to leave because of the French and the US doesn't want us to leave......because of the French.

It's a funny old world

Steve