The Captain (who had flown SBDs in training) said they were rock steady in a dive, while the Helldiver was "like a squirrel with epilepsy" in a dive.
Why was the SBD such an effective aircraft?
- Thread starter fliger747
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But you don't have so many radar guided guns on the battlefield, very near the front lines, which is where the pin-point accuracy of the dive bomber was most useful (and most widely used, by the Germans and also by the Anglo-Americans with their A-36 and all the fighter bombers). This is is where the dive bomber had it's main role in the land war - 200 meters in front of the friendly tanks. When the Anglo-Americans tried to do strikes like that with medium and heavy bombers it often backfired with horrendous friendly fire incidents and rarely did much to the enemy (with a few lucky exceptions). The dive bomber shared this space with fighters and dedicated ground attack aircraft (both light, ala HS 123 or I-153, and heavy ala HS 129 and Il2 Sturmovik). But as we discussed upthread the increasing proliferation of multi-barreled flak vehicles with the HMGs and light cannon started making this a dangerous proposition by late 1943.
In a naval context there were also ways of confusing even good flak, and I don't think there were any German ships, fleets or convoys that could have survived attack by USN carrier wing while out to sea, without air cover.
I think there is a separate mission we are sometimes alluding to here, which is the deep intruder or interdiction strike. Going after rail yards, ammunition dumps and bridges and troop concentrations and so on, substantially behind the lines. For that you want something very fast, the Mosquito in particular was well suited to this type of mission. Others used this way include the A-20, Ju 88, Pe-2, Beaufighter (for a while), the Bf 110 and P-38 as fighter bombers, and various single engined fighter bombers that had a bit longer legs: Fw 190, P-40, P-51, P-47, Typhoon, Tempest, Corsair, and so on. Later in the war the A-26 Invader. Dangerous missions and only a few types could pull it off within an acceptable loss rate. Even the Hudson and I think possibly the Ventura were pressed into this kind of service. Later intruder missions of this type were done at night, this was how the Soviets used the B-25 and to some extent eventually, the A-20 - to fly intruder missions at night though obviously the target destruction rate declined.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Just an FYI, the Douglas A-24 (9,200 lb.) was just slightly lighter than the
SBD-3 (9,400 lb.).
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-40/PHQ-M-19-1307-A.pdf
Page 3, Hurricane vs. A-24.
SBD-3 (9,400 lb.).
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-40/PHQ-M-19-1307-A.pdf
Page 3, Hurricane vs. A-24.
That's why I conditioned the point I was making on, "For combat purposes..." We already went over these non-combat purposes that evidently just occurred to you, several pages back, so you're not exactly being full of news, here.
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The other ships were just basically picking a spot in the sky and shooting at it, hoping something diving at the fleet runs into it, but that was about the sophistication of their "flak." It was hardly as organized, and, as such, hardly as accurate, I guess that's right.
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michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
Wow, ive read they were tricky to fly and land but that REALLY sounds bad.
You lose enough friends in them, it tends to sour your attitude. And the skipper was spring-loaded to the "sourpuss" position.
Since when are ASW and emergency fighter "non-combat"?? Tackling a surfaced sub with its AA guns or an enemy fighter or bomber with its armament sounds a lot like combat to me. Admittedly these are not its primary mission (scouting IS) but to call them non-combat is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
They were relegated to attacking subs in the Atlantic, I know, but that wasn't their, OK, "primary" combat purpose. That purpose came largely just after the F6F and F4U all but took over their primary combat purpose in the Pacific, which, again, was dive bombing. And that was my point. CASU-24 put them to chasing subs, but that was only late in the War, when they were basically washed-up in the Pacific, for the F6F and F4U. When did this Captain you know get his training on the SBD? If it was 1944, they were figuring him for the Atlantic, not the Pacific.
I agree with your post, BTW. I should have said something to the effect, "incidental to their primary combat purpose," as their guns obviously had a combat purpose. So, FWIW. Now get off my back, lol...
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Actually they were intensively used in the Pacific for ASW, 'sub patrol' was probably the single most common mission they did. Dive bombing was the most important offensive mission but the ASW stuff was critical too, for survival of the carrier. As you know a few were lost to IJN Sumarines.
Also I believe that photo is an SB2C but it's cool anyway....
Also I believe that photo is an SB2C but it's cool anyway....
Yes. That picture is a frame from an 8-second video I was trying to load. Here she is, just kicking back...
pinehilljoe
Staff Sergeant
- 753
- May 1, 2016
When Radar and the Leigh Light took away the advantage of transiting at night, Doenitz ordered the U-Boats to transit the Bay of Biscaye by day and fight it out on the surface with ASW aircraft, in the end that didn't work either.
He was never a fleet Dauntless pilot, as they were out of frontline service at the time. On his way to the Helldiver, he flew the SBD in the training pipeline, as an advanced trainer. He was around for Iwo and Okinawa, and the rampages of TF38 and 58. I was never "friends" with him, as he was base CO, and I was a lowly 3rd Class Petty Officer, and only got to meet him because my barracks roommate worked in Admin, and I got invited to a dinner where the fighter pilots from the RAG squadron quizzed the skipper about his experiences. I just sat there and listened and counted my blessings.
Cheers,
Wes
Oh. So anyway, Wes, what was your job, running the dice games? Lol. But actually, I have a basis in saying that. These games on the carriers, from what I've been told, were bankrolled by what we here in Chicago affectionately refer to as "The Outfit," while the CPOs ran the games. Call it a little slice of the PTO coming to Wikipedia not anytime soon, I'm sure, lol...
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Funny, the dice games, reputedly so prevalent on shipboard, never seemed to happen at our base, but if you were so inclined, you could lose your paycheck pretty quick at poker or acey ducey.
My actual job was to maintain and operate a radar interception and electronics countermeasures trainer for the F4, in support of the RAG squadron detachment which specialized in the ACM portion of the syllabus. Interesting work for an airplane nut, working with aviators and their students and enacting various interception and ACM scenarios as seen from the back seat of a Phantom.
Cheers,
Wes
Funny, I just saw an F4 Phantom a couple of days ago, on my lunch break. It's in a small museum, and it was described to me as a "replica." I just saw it from outside the fence. What monsters these were!
Unfortunately, I didn't take a picture of it, as I was pressed for time. I got this one of the 109 replica they got there, though, below.
But ah, the peculiarities of that big War. For all the historians know, I'm convinced there's probably as much they'll never know. Just the way it is.
My barracks was barely 100 yards from the approach end of runway 13, and when a flight of four lit their burners for takeoff, it felt like 7.3 Richter. Getting into the back seat was an acrobatic exercise, involving climbing an 8 foot boarding ladder to the front cockpit, then crawling along the top of the intake duct to the back seat, and slithering down into the stately armchair provided by Messieurs Martin and Baker (thank you, Great Britain) without stepping on anything important (like the ejection seat safety locks), or snagging the umbilicals dangling from your flight gear.
Cheers,
Wes
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michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
Very cool. I mentioned this in a previous post along time ago so my apologies to those who have already read this but my grandfather worked at Douglas, soon to become McDonnell Douglas most of his adult life and worked on just about everything from the Dc3 to the F15 including the Phantom.
It's very possible he could have made parts for the plane you flew in. Just thought that is kinda neat.
These birds were hatched circa 1968/69/70, before the McD-D wedding. They had all done a tour in SEA before they came to us. In fact shore duty units like the RAG squadron were considered a good "light duty" assignment for airframes that had been overstressed/abused and deemed not safe for shipboard operation.
Cheers,
Wes
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pinehilljoe
Staff Sergeant
- 753
- May 1, 2016
I just saw the trailer for the new movie Midway, looks like tons of CGI footage of SBDs and a story line with a lot of Hollywood artistic license.
Midway – Official Movie Site
Midway – Official Movie Site
