The Captain (who had flown SBDs in training) said they were rock steady in a dive, while the Helldiver was "like a squirrel with epilepsy" in a dive.
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The Captain (who had flown SBDs in training) said they were rock steady in a dive, while the Helldiver was "like a squirrel with epilepsy" in a dive.and I doubt any improvement in bombing accuracy.
Yes, but at their approach altitudes, dive bombers are looking at impressive looking, but not very effective flak, especially where the Japanese are concerned. Unless, of course, you're talking about radar guided 88s, which were a non-event in the PTO. IJN wasn't that sophisticated. It's only when they pick their targets and begin their dives that they get into the zone of truly accurate fire. And if they're crippled in the dive, they're likely to splash either on or right next to their target.
ETO, they're much more likely to encounter higher level accurate flak.
Cheers,
Wes
That's why I conditioned the point I was making on, "For combat purposes..." We already went over these non-combat purposes that evidently just occurred to you, several pages back, so you're not exactly being full of news, here.Actually it was dive bomber, scout, emergency fighter, and ASW. Used in all four roles historically, if you want to keep your head out of the sand.
The other ships were just basically picking a spot in the sky and shooting at it, hoping something diving at the fleet runs into it, but that was about the sophistication of their "flak." It was hardly as organized, and, as such, hardly as accurate, I guess that's right.Yes, but at their approach altitudes, dive bombers are looking at impressive looking, but not very effective flak, especially where the Japanese are concerned. Unless, of course, you're talking about radar guided 88s, which were a non-event in the PTO. IJN wasn't that sophisticated. It's only when they pick their targets and begin their dives that they get into the zone of truly accurate fire. And if they're crippled in the dive, they're likely to splash either on or right next to their target.
ETO, they're much more likely to encounter higher level accurate flak.
Cheers,
Wes
Wow, ive read they were tricky to fly and land but that REALLY sounds bad.Beauty is as beauty does. The only person I've ever met who flew Helldivers in combat said it would bite you in the ass if you looked away for a second. He said on most missions there were more losses to accidents and mechanical failure than to enemy action. Said there was no such thing as a survivable landing accident on the carrier with them, and they ditched "like a crash-diving submarine".
Cheers,
Wes
You lose enough friends in them, it tends to sour your attitude. And the skipper was spring-loaded to the "sourpuss" position.Wow, ive read they were tricky to fly and land but that REALLY sounds bad.
Since when are ASW and emergency fighter "non-combat"?? Tackling a surfaced sub with its AA guns or an enemy fighter or bomber with its armament sounds a lot like combat to me. Admittedly these are not its primary mission (scouting IS) but to call them non-combat is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?I conditioned the point I was making on, "For combat purposes..." We already went over these non-combat purposes
They were relegated to attacking subs in the Atlantic, I know, but that wasn't their, OK, "primary" combat purpose. That purpose came largely just after the F6F and F4U all but took over their primary combat purpose in the Pacific, which, again, was dive bombing. And that was my point. CASU-24 put them to chasing subs, but that was only late in the War, when they were basically washed-up in the Pacific, for the F6F and F4U. When did this Captain you know get his training on the SBD? If it was 1944, they were figuring him for the Atlantic, not the Pacific.Since when are ASW and emergency fighter "non-combat"?? Tackling a surfaced sub with its AA guns or an enemy fighter or bomber with its armament sounds a lot like combat to me. Admittedly these are not its primary mission (scouting IS) but to call them non-combat is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
Yes. That picture is a frame from an 8-second video I was trying to load. Here she is, just kicking back...Actually they were intensively used in the Pacific for ASW, 'sub patrol' was probably the single most common mission they did. Dive bombing was the most important offensive mission but the ASW stuff was critical too, for survival of the carrier. As you know a few were lost to IJN Sumarines.
Also I believe that photo is an SB2C but it's cool anyway....
Since when are ASW and emergency fighter "non-combat"?? Tackling a surfaced sub with its AA guns or an enemy fighter or bomber with its armament sounds a lot like combat to me. Admittedly these are not its primary mission (scouting IS) but to call them non-combat is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
He was never a fleet Dauntless pilot, as they were out of frontline service at the time. On his way to the Helldiver, he flew the SBD in the training pipeline, as an advanced trainer. He was around for Iwo and Okinawa, and the rampages of TF38 and 58. I was never "friends" with him, as he was base CO, and I was a lowly 3rd Class Petty Officer, and only got to meet him because my barracks roommate worked in Admin, and I got invited to a dinner where the fighter pilots from the RAG squadron quizzed the skipper about his experiences. I just sat there and listened and counted my blessings.When did this Captain you know get his training on the SBD? If it was 1944, they were figuring him for the Atlantic, not the Pacific.
Oh. So anyway, Wes, what was your job, running the dice games? Lol. But actually, I have a basis in saying that. These games on the carriers, from what I've been told, were bankrolled by what we here in Chicago affectionately refer to as "The Outfit," while the CPOs ran the games. Call it a little slice of the PTO coming to Wikipedia not anytime soon, I'm sure, lol...He was never a fleet Dauntless pilot, as they were out of frontline service at the time. On his way to the Helldiver, he flew the SBD in the training pipeline, as an advanced trainer. He was around for Iwo and Okinawa, and the rampages of TF38 and 58. I was never "friends" with him, as he was base CO, and I was a lowly 3rd Class Petty Officer, and only got to meet him because my barracks roommate worked in Admin, and I got invited to a dinner where the fighter pilots from the RAG squadron quizzed the skipper about his experiences. I just sat there and listened and counted my blessings.
Cheers,
Wes
Funny, the dice games, reputedly so prevalent on shipboard, never seemed to happen at our base, but if you were so inclined, you could lose your paycheck pretty quick at poker or acey ducey.Oh. So anyway, Wes, what was your job, running the dice games?
Funny, I just saw an F4 Phantom a couple of days ago, on my lunch break. It's in a small museum, and it was described to me as a "replica." I just saw it from outside the fence. What monsters these were!Funny, the dice games, reputedly so prevalent on shipboard, never seemed to happen at our base, but if you were so inclined, you could lose your paycheck pretty quick at poker or acey ducey.
My actual job was to maintain and operate a radar interception and electronics countermeasures trainer for the F4, in support of the RAG squadron detachment which specialized in the ACM portion of the syllabus. Interesting work for an airplane nut, working with aviators and their students and enacting various interception and ACM scenarios as seen from the back seat of a Phantom.
Cheers,
Wes
My barracks was barely 100 yards from the approach end of runway 13, and when a flight of four lit their burners for takeoff, it felt like 7.3 Richter. Getting into the back seat was an acrobatic exercise, involving climbing an 8 foot boarding ladder to the front cockpit, then crawling along the top of the intake duct to the back seat, and slithering down into the stately armchair provided by Messieurs Martin and Baker (thank you, Great Britain) without stepping on anything important (like the ejection seat safety locks), or snagging the umbilicals dangling from your flight gear.Funny, I just saw an F4 Phantom a couple of days ago, on my lunch break. It's in a small museum, and it was described to me as a "replica." I just saw it from outside the fence. What monsters these were!
Very cool. I mentioned this in a previous post along time ago so my apologies to those who have already read this but my grandfather worked at Douglas, soon to become McDonnell Douglas most of his adult life and worked on just about everything from the Dc3 to the F15 including the Phantom.Funny, the dice games, reputedly so prevalent on shipboard, never seemed to happen at our base, but if you were so inclined, you could lose your paycheck pretty quick at poker or acey ducey.
My actual job was to maintain and operate a radar interception and electronics countermeasures trainer for the F4, in support of the RAG squadron detachment which specialized in the ACM portion of the syllabus. Interesting work for an airplane nut, working with aviators and their students and enacting various interception and ACM scenarios as seen from the back seat of a Phantom.
Cheers,
Wes
These birds were hatched circa 1968/69/70, before the McD-D wedding. They had all done a tour in SEA before they came to us. In fact shore duty units like the RAG squadron were considered a good "light duty" assignment for airframes that had been overstressed/abused and deemed not safe for shipboard operation.It's very possible he could have made parts for the plane you flew in. Just thought that is kinda neat.