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You are correct. The real victor at Midway was the unorchestrated but effective, series of events that led up to the annihilation of the Japanese carriers starting with the early attacks of the Midway forces of B-17s, B-26s, and TBFs (which were no more successful than the obsolete TBDs) which kept the Japanese on their heels, and then then fortuitous and fatal attack by the TBDs which was followed immediately by the practically fighter unchallenged attack of the SBDs. The TBDs were no doubt obsolete, but so was their missions, i.e., dropping faulty torpedoes from very low altitudes and very low airspeeds (I think about 130 mph). At Coral Sea the TBDs did okay, excluding the awful torpedo performance, where reasonable fighter cover was provided.There was more to the Dauntless than just being in the right place at the right time but that is the secret to it's success at Midway.
Just being in the same battle on the same day doesn't count as being in the same place at the same time.
If Dauntlesses had taken the place of Devastators in the early attacks would they have fared much better? Same pilots with the same training, no stories of how well Swede Vejtasa did at coral sea. (he had been flying since July of 1939).
If Devastators had found themselves over the Japanese carriers at the same time/location as the Dauntlesses did (and with the same crews) would they have done much worse? (OK US Devastators didn't have dive brakes or at least very good ones, French ones did though)
There isn't any question the Dauntless was the better plane but circumstances often have at least something to do with legends.
I just think its an unfair comment 'what else would you do with them'. Us Brits used the Avenger successfully for ASW and as a bomber, but never to drop torpedoes. Well we had the Swordfish for that, didn't we? At least the FAA was sensible enough to use them for low visibility or night attacks as opposed to the USN which used their torpedo bombers in daylight opposed attacks. I thought the Avenger was pretty good when used sensibly, just like the Swordfish.Why the hell Dave received a dislike just above?? Not hailing the Hawker Hurricane to high heavens?
The TBF/M was designed as a Torpedo bomber, therefor, attacking with torpedoes would be the logical thing to do with a torpedo bomber.I just think its an unfair comment 'what else would you do with them'. Us Brits used the Avenger successfully for ASW and as a bomber, but never to drop torpedoes. Well we had the Swordfish for that, didn't we? At least the FAA was sensible enough to use them for low visibility or night attacks as opposed to the USN which used their torpedo bombers in daylight opposed attacks. I thought the Avenger was pretty good when used sensibly, just like the Swordfish.
I just think its an unfair comment 'what else would you do with them'. Us Brits used the Avenger successfully for ASW and as a bomber, but never to drop torpedoes. Well we had the Swordfish for that, didn't we? At least the FAA was sensible enough to use them for low visibility or night attacks as opposed to the USN which used their torpedo bombers in daylight opposed attacks. I thought the Avenger was pretty good when used sensibly, just like the Swordfish.
The best use we had of the Albacore was as a dive bomber and night raids in the Western Desert. Don't knock it. Even the Luftwaffe used the Cr 42 for night attacks. The Ruskies were luckier, they had the Po-2 flown by their night witches.Not that hard, eh - a worded comment, instead just slapping a 'dislike' like you are slapping the 'disagree' to me.
Avenger was not able to use British torpedoes, since those were too long to fit in the bomb bay (circa 3 ft longer than the US Mk.13).
'We' didn't have anything in ww2, Swordfishes were property of RN, and both Swordfish and Albacore were flying target practice against a half-decent aerial opposition.
The SBD benefited from the fact that the IJN had no air warning radar until late 1942, and none at Midway.
The TBD was a really poor aircraft with severe airframe limitations, low power and severely overweight. Consequently it performed poorly and it's official stats border on being pure fiction.
The SBD benefited from the fact that the IJN had no air warning radar until late 1942, and none at Midway.
The TBD was a really poor aircraft with severe airframe limitations, low power and severely overweight. Consequently it performed poorly and it's official stats border on being pure fiction.
An old joke.
2 gentleman was been chased by a tiger and one of them puts his trainers/sneakers/running shoes on.
The other guy asks if he intends to outrun a tiger?
The answer was "no, I only have to outrun you."
If the Dauntless was garbage then the IJN was utterly worthless.
These weren't anything to sneeze at in dogfights. Then again, they weren't designed as fighter-aircraft. They were rather designed to do their business, then get the hell out. Their firepower was for defensive more than offensive purposes.
The TBDs/TBMs shoulder a lot of criticism. Much of it is deservedly-so. My Dad's buddy flew these. The actor, Paul Newman, was his radioman/gunner, just as an interesting note. But there's no question, they'd have sunk those carriers, but for the enemy fighter-cover. I'll also add, no make of torpedo bomber, from whomever the manufacturer, could have withstood that enemy fighter-cover any better, going into mouth of their targets, as they had to, that low, unless they had proportionate fighter-cover, themselves.
The Speedy Ds didn't need fighter-cover, like the TBDs/TBMs did. And that's what happened, there, in a nut...
They were just called "Speedy Ds." But yes, they weren't fighter-aircraft, but they were tough ones. Agreed all around...SBD kill claims have to be taken with a very large grain of salt as was their ability to mix it in dogfights The SBD-3 had less than a 1000hp at altitude and still weighed ~9000lb without a bomb. Granted, unlike the TBD the SBD airframe was stressed for high G manoeuvres and their pilots could fly to the limit knowing that they had a basically unbreakable airframe. The USAAF was distinctly underwhelmed by their A-24s, which was a lighter variant of the SBD.
It wasn't their speed that protected the SBD (it cruised at ~130 knots), rather it was their cruise altitude which made it difficult for IJN CAP to spot and intercept them.
"Speedy Three" was the nickname for the SBD-3 and it was also called "Slow But Deadly".
I understand the skepticism about the SBD's ability to fight, but the USN thought it was capable of the task. Not many dive-bombers were used as supplemental CAP.