Why was the SBD such an effective aircraft?

[RCAFson]

The SBD benefited from the fact that the IJN had no air warning radar until late 1942, and none at Midway.

The TBD was a really poor aircraft with severe airframe limitations, low power and severely overweight. Consequently it performed poorly and it's official stats border on being pure fiction.

 

[davparlr]

There was more to the Dauntless than just being in the right place at the right time but that is the secret to it's success at Midway.
Just being in the same battle on the same day doesn't count as being in the same place at the same time.
If Dauntlesses had taken the place of Devastators in the early attacks would they have fared much better? Same pilots with the same training, no stories of how well Swede Vejtasa did at coral sea. (he had been flying since July of 1939).
If Devastators had found themselves over the Japanese carriers at the same time/location as the Dauntlesses did (and with the same crews) would they have done much worse? (OK US Devastators didn't have dive brakes or at least very good ones, French ones did though)

There isn't any question the Dauntless was the better plane but circumstances often have at least something to do with legends.

You are correct. The real victor at Midway was the unorchestrated but effective, series of events that led up to the annihilation of the Japanese carriers starting with the early attacks of the Midway forces of B-17s, B-26s, and TBFs (which were no more successful than the obsolete TBDs) which kept the Japanese on their heels, and then then fortuitous and fatal attack by the TBDs which was followed immediately by the practically fighter unchallenged attack of the SBDs. The TBDs were no doubt obsolete, but so was their missions, i.e., dropping faulty torpedoes from very low altitudes and very low airspeeds (I think about 130 mph). At Coral Sea the TBDs did okay, excluding the awful torpedo performance, where reasonable fighter cover was provided.

 

[Barrett]

Most forum members know that I'm a hewge SBD fan. Not just because it was my first book (in print since 1976!) but because I enjoyed the blessing to help restore our A-24B as an SBD-5 and got about 6-8 hours flight time. A couple of years ago I wrote a tribute in Naval History Magazine called "The Plane that Won the War" and laid out the reasons--certainly well known here. A couple of B-17 partisans got cranky but they were easily ignored.

Thing is: imagine the US Navy and Marine Corps without the SBD in the year after Pearl. For that matter, imagine no F4Fs. That left SB2Us and F2As...
Yeah.

The main reason the Dauntless was a war-winner in 42 is that it was flown largely by prewar professionals who were extremely good at what they did. The "platform" (to use a XXI century term) was very well suited to the role, and that combination produced results when results were essential. Before we started flying ours, a couple of experienced pilots said "It flies like a big SNJ." And that's true. At cruise you could "drive" the bird with a thumb and two fingers on the stick. I got to know Ed Heinemann well and he said the ailerons were the factory's pride. Do not recall how much (or if) they were changed from the Northrop BT-1.

(Other warbird owners asked why we didn't dive our bird. But the original seals were then 30 years old, and I remember the boldface caution in the pilot's manual: THE SBD-5 AIRPLANE WILL NOT MAINTAIN LEVEL FLIGHT WITH THE DIVE FLAPS EXTENDED.

Sidebar: I was oaflishly proud to tell Ed something he did not know. The holes in the dive and landing flaps (all 318) were exactly the diameter of a tennis ball. How I came to know that is another story...

 

[davebender]

TBF and TBM ended up being used as bombers more than they did torpedo planes.
Given the poor quality of USN torpedoes during the early 1940s what else could they do?

 

[tomo pauk]

Why the hell Dave received a dislike just above?? Not hailing the Hawker Hurricane to high heavens?

 

[Kevin J]

Why the hell Dave received a dislike just above?? Not hailing the Hawker Hurricane to high heavens?

I just think its an unfair comment 'what else would you do with them'. Us Brits used the Avenger successfully for ASW and as a bomber, but never to drop torpedoes. Well we had the Swordfish for that, didn't we? At least the FAA was sensible enough to use them for low visibility or night attacks as opposed to the USN which used their torpedo bombers in daylight opposed attacks. I thought the Avenger was pretty good when used sensibly, just like the Swordfish.

 

[GrauGeist]

I just think its an unfair comment 'what else would you do with them'. Us Brits used the Avenger successfully for ASW and as a bomber, but never to drop torpedoes. Well we had the Swordfish for that, didn't we? At least the FAA was sensible enough to use them for low visibility or night attacks as opposed to the USN which used their torpedo bombers in daylight opposed attacks. I thought the Avenger was pretty good when used sensibly, just like the Swordfish.

The TBF/M was designed as a Torpedo bomber, therefor, attacking with torpedoes would be the logical thing to do with a torpedo bomber.

The fact that it was able to transition to bombing was a plus. And the Avenger was used extensively in attacking Japanese positions during the Island campaigns and it was one of those instances where President Bush's TBM-1C was shot down after delivering an accurate bomb strike on a Japanese command center.

But Dave's comment was spot on and didn't warrant a negative mark

 

[tomo pauk]

I just think its an unfair comment 'what else would you do with them'. Us Brits used the Avenger successfully for ASW and as a bomber, but never to drop torpedoes. Well we had the Swordfish for that, didn't we? At least the FAA was sensible enough to use them for low visibility or night attacks as opposed to the USN which used their torpedo bombers in daylight opposed attacks. I thought the Avenger was pretty good when used sensibly, just like the Swordfish.

Not that hard, eh - a worded comment, instead just slapping a 'dislike' like you are slapping the 'disagree' to me.
Avenger was not able to use British torpedoes, since those were too long to fit in the bomb bay (circa 3 ft longer than the US Mk.13).
'We' didn't have anything in ww2, Swordfishes were property of RN, and both Swordfish and Albacore were flying target practice against a half-decent aerial opposition.

 

[VBF-13]

Here's a faint negative taken during a training exercise over the Gulf of Mexico in 1944. That's the old man in #19. They had night trainings in these, as well, over illuminated die markers. The old man carrier-qualified on the "Speedy D" in 1944, June, off the Sable, in Lake Michigan, where they had to do 8 landings for that. Just a little more historical on these...

 

[Kevin J]

Not that hard, eh - a worded comment, instead just slapping a 'dislike' like you are slapping the 'disagree' to me.
Avenger was not able to use British torpedoes, since those were too long to fit in the bomb bay (circa 3 ft longer than the US Mk.13).
'We' didn't have anything in ww2, Swordfishes were property of RN, and both Swordfish and Albacore were flying target practice against a half-decent aerial opposition.

The best use we had of the Albacore was as a dive bomber and night raids in the Western Desert. Don't knock it. Even the Luftwaffe used the Cr 42 for night attacks. The Ruskies were luckier, they had the Po-2 flown by their night witches.

 

[Barrett]

Ref. Jim Howard flying SBDs:
I knew Jim tolerably well and in fact contributed to his memoir. He never-ever mentioned SBDs. Prewar he flew F3Fs in VF-6 aboard Enterprise.

 

[The Basket]

The SBD benefited from the fact that the IJN had no air warning radar until late 1942, and none at Midway.

The TBD was a really poor aircraft with severe airframe limitations, low power and severely overweight. Consequently it performed poorly and it's official stats border on being pure fiction.

An old joke.
2 gentleman was been chased by a tiger and one of them puts his trainers/sneakers/running shoes on.
The other guy asks if he intends to outrun a tiger?
The answer was "no, I only have to outrun you."

If the Dauntless was garbage then the IJN was utterly worthless.

 

[pinsog]

Anything at Midway flying at 50 ft at 120 mph through the middle of the Japanese fleet was going to get plastered by the Zero's. 2 of the 4 B26's were shot down as were 5 of the 6 Avengers. The only reason the 2 B26's survived were because they had armor, self sealing tanks, good defensive firepower and after dropping their torpedoes they buried the throttles and those big R2800's allowed them to at least match the Zero's speed at SL. I doubt a flight of B17's would have survived that same run at SL if their top speed was limited to 120 mph like a Devistator was

 

[VBF-13]

The SBD benefited from the fact that the IJN had no air warning radar until late 1942, and none at Midway.

These weren't anything to sneeze at in dogfights. Then again, they weren't designed as fighter-aircraft. They were rather designed to do their business, then get the hell out. Their firepower was for defensive more than offensive purposes.

The TBD was a really poor aircraft with severe airframe limitations, low power and severely overweight. Consequently it performed poorly and it's official stats border on being pure fiction.

The TBDs/TBMs shoulder a lot of criticism. Much of it is deservedly-so. My Dad's buddy flew these. The actor, Paul Newman, was his radioman/gunner, just as an interesting note. But there's no question, they'd have sunk those carriers, but for the enemy fighter-cover. I'll also add, no make of torpedo bomber, from whomever the manufacturer, could have withstood that enemy fighter-cover any better, going into mouth of their targets, as they had to, that low, unless they had proportionate fighter-cover, themselves.

The Speedy Ds didn't need fighter-cover, like the TBDs/TBMs did. And that's what happened, there, in a nut...

 

[RCAFson]

An old joke.
2 gentleman was been chased by a tiger and one of them puts his trainers/sneakers/running shoes on.
The other guy asks if he intends to outrun a tiger?
The answer was "no, I only have to outrun you."

If the Dauntless was garbage then the IJN was utterly worthless.

Who said the SBD was garbage?

The fact is that the IJN didn't intercept any of the SBDs at Midway (and few elsewhere) until they were in their attack dives and, then only a handful were intercepted. This wasn't due to any inherent quality of the SBD except that it cruised at 15-20k ft and the IJN failed to see them. If we replace the SBDs with Albacores and fly the Albacores along the same mission profile, with the same bomb load, then we'd expect similar results, both in terms of bomb hits and in shot down Albacores down prior to weapon release. After weapon release we'd expect Albacore losses to be heavier depending on the then current location and status of IJN CAP.

 

[RCAFson]

These weren't anything to sneeze at in dogfights. Then again, they weren't designed as fighter-aircraft. They were rather designed to do their business, then get the hell out. Their firepower was for defensive more than offensive purposes.



The TBDs/TBMs shoulder a lot of criticism. Much of it is deservedly-so. My Dad's buddy flew these. The actor, Paul Newman, was his radioman/gunner, just as an interesting note. But there's no question, they'd have sunk those carriers, but for the enemy fighter-cover. I'll also add, no make of torpedo bomber, from whomever the manufacturer, could have withstood that enemy fighter-cover any better, going into mouth of their targets, as they had to, that low, unless they had proportionate fighter-cover, themselves.

The Speedy Ds didn't need fighter-cover, like the TBDs/TBMs did. And that's what happened, there, in a nut...

SBD kill claims have to be taken with a very large grain of salt as was their ability to mix it in dogfights The SBD-3 had less than a 1000hp at altitude and still weighed ~9000lb without a bomb. Granted, unlike the TBD the SBD airframe was stressed for high G manoeuvres and their pilots could fly to the limit knowing that they had a basically unbreakable airframe. The USAAF was distinctly underwhelmed by their A-24s, which was a lighter variant of the SBD.

It wasn't their speed that protected the SBD (it cruised at ~130 knots), rather it was their cruise altitude which made it difficult for IJN CAP to spot and intercept them.

 

[VBF-13]

SBD kill claims have to be taken with a very large grain of salt as was their ability to mix it in dogfights The SBD-3 had less than a 1000hp at altitude and still weighed ~9000lb without a bomb. Granted, unlike the TBD the SBD airframe was stressed for high G manoeuvres and their pilots could fly to the limit knowing that they had a basically unbreakable airframe. The USAAF was distinctly underwhelmed by their A-24s, which was a lighter variant of the SBD.

It wasn't their speed that protected the SBD (it cruised at ~130 knots), rather it was their cruise altitude which made it difficult for IJN CAP to spot and intercept them.

They were just called "Speedy Ds." But yes, they weren't fighter-aircraft, but they were tough ones. Agreed all around...

 

[GrauGeist]

"Speedy Three" was the nickname for the SBD-3 and it was also called "Slow But Deadly".

I understand the skepticism about the SBD's ability to fight, but the USN thought it was capable of the task. Not many dive-bombers were used as supplemental CAP.

 

[MIflyer]

In the book No Higher Honor they describe how one TBD pilot was told, "Yes, the TBD can't fly fast. But it sure can fly slow better than anything." I mean, look at the wing on that airplane! Escaping the Zeros, that pilot kept that in mind, flew slow away from the battle area rather than full throttle, and did a tight turn each time a Zero lined up on him. He apparently ran the Zeros out of ammo and one IJN pilot passed him either shaking his fist or giving him a salute - he did not know which - and then broke off and head back to his carrier - which the SBD's probably had just sunk.

 

[VBF-13]

"Speedy Three" was the nickname for the SBD-3 and it was also called "Slow But Deadly".

"Slow But Deadly" is more a description that became popular through repetiveness because it sounds cool, is my take on that, as I've never heard it, at least not from the generation. That makes me think it came after. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

I understand the skepticism about the SBD's ability to fight, but the USN thought it was capable of the task. Not many dive-bombers were used as supplemental CAP.

That's right, it was capable. And there were times it was put to that capacity, after it let go its load.